Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting

[Captain-Captain]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Too bad DF isn't out in hardcover, so the player, to whom you ask this utterly stupid question, can't beat you repeatedly over the head with the book, after having shown you the various templates in DF1 and DF4, many of which empower players to give their characters several specialties of the Hidden Lore skill.

Peter, you're heading down a path once tread by Tom Kalbfus when you make posts llike that...

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Captain-Captain

Peter, you're heading down a path once tread by Tom Kalbfus when you make posts llike that...

"I am the player! I wield the smashy book!"

[trechriron]

There are some generic, stat-free settings out there.

Harn is a very detailed quasi-medieval setting;

http://www.kelestia.com/

http://www.lythia.com/

http://www.columbiagames.com/

Also, the The World of Khaas, Legendary Lands of Arduin was made into a huge encyclopedia;

http://www.worldofkhaas.com/

[Þorkell]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Too bad DF isn't out in hardcover, so the player, to whom you ask this utterly stupid question, can't beat you repeatedly over the head with the book, after having shown you the various templates in DF1 and DF4, many of which empower players to give their characters several specialties of the Hidden Lore skill.

How come the player can't point out that oversight of mine to me without resorting to violence?

[PK]

Originally Posted by Þorkell

How come the player can't point out that oversight of mine to me without resorting to violence?

To Peter, a discussion between player and GM can range from "argument" (at the 'calm' end) to "fistfight" (at the 'angry' end). At least, that's my take on him, based on a few years of Pyramid board cohabitation. On multiple occasions, he's insisted, "The GM's job is to set up the world and oversee the simulation of reality, and that's it. Anything more is getting in the players' way." So I guess you could call that approach an adversarial one.

Unlike some people (not naming names*), I don't think Peter actually hates GMs, but his take on the player/GM role is definitely . . . quirky.

*For safety, as the first name that comes to mind is a member who I consider actually dangerous.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

The term "metagame" is inapplicable to events that take place prior to game start.

Creating you character is part of the game. You can absolutely use metagame knowledge to create a character.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

What will promot an inexperienced GM to realize that he needs to think about languages before gamestart?

Wikipedia doesn't tell him to. No DF supplment tells him to.

IDHMBWM so I can’t comment specifically on what the GMing section of the GURPS books say right now, but I can say you are wrong about the Wikipedia thing. I looked up Game Master on Wikipedia and it does say that worldbuilding is one of the responsibilities of the Game Master. Wikipedia even has an article on World Building that it links you to, and right at the top it tells you “A constructed world typically has a number of constructed cultures and constructed languages associated with it.” Then later it even mentions that creating languages was J.R.R. Tolkien’s start to Middle-earth. So an inexperienced GM can find out he or she might want to have languages in his or her game world by just reading Wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I don't need help as a GM. I'm not an inexperienced GM. I'm just pointing to the fact that inexperienced GMs exist, and that a subset of these will try out DF, and that a subset of this subset will make disastrous decisions, due to the lack of official guidance, if one of their players opts for a Scholar template character and/or a character with the Language Talent Advantage.

And I have already said every game needs a setting of some kind, even DF games. I even think that a DF game setting might eventually make its way to e23. But remember, by your own admission above, that setting would largely be marketed to GMs playing GURPS, a subset of those who try out DF, and a subset of those who are afraid they will make disastrous decisions without it. That isn’t a huge number of people and SJG is right to focus its efforts where there is more demand for a product.

Anyway, I really don’t think that the player asking (even an inexperienced) Game Master what languages are appropriate to start out with at character creation is dropping nearly the bomb on him or her that you are trying to portray. I’d even say that even if an inexperienced GM, in retrospect, made a not-so-great call about what ancient language the wizard of the group put a few character points into during character creation , it isn’t going to be “disastrous decision” as far as things go. I bet the game will manage to go on and the mistake could even be rectified in time.

[Gavynn]

While I was brushing my teeth, it occurred to me that GURPS does tell you to think about languages before that game starts. SJG provides us a free website of GURPS resources and play aids from which a GM (whether experienced or inexperienced) can download the official GURPS campaign planning form. It is a fantastic resource for an inexperienced GM to download and fill out before character creation to make sure he or she hits the high points of the game world. You will find it has a place for "Languages Available". So I would say GURPS absolutely does suggest the GM think about these things before hand and even provides an handy-dandy worksheet for free to GMs to help them out with these things.

Edit: Although IDHMBWM, I think this worksheet is in the GURPS books too, so that means by reading your GURPS books you can also know you might want to think about the languages of the game world.

Edit Edit: And that worksheet just list "Languages Available" under PC information. It doesn't prompt you to try and write down every language in the setting.

[Andrew Hackard]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

You forgot to explain whether or not languages plays as big a role in the campaign as Kromm intended them to. Also, how many of your players created Scholars? How many created characters with Langauge Talent?

Kromm doesn't run my game; I do. If I decide to create a DF-themed world with only a few languages, I'll just take Language Talent out of the templates and replace it with something equivalent, or give the player those points for his own selections.

[nik1979]

Why not revive all those less popular fantasy settings like Mystara, Birthright, Greyhawk, Darksun, Kalamar etc... ? Why make another new setting when there is so much oldies which can be recycled and it is much easier to keep the DF line Generic and Universal?

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by nik1979

Why not revive all those less popular fantasy settings like Mystara, Birthright, Greyhawk, Darksun, Kalamar etc... ? Why make another new setting when there is so much oldies which can be recycled and it is much easier to keep the DF line Generic and Universal?

I totally agree.

For me, if DF had a setting, that would be a *flaw*, not a feature.
I like DF because it's 'generic' and easily adapted to your world of choice (or, to none at all; we are currently playing a truly "setting-free" campaign; it's a generic, D&Desque, anything-goes fantasy "setting" and the players take turns in GMing).