Dungeon Fantasy needs a bare-bones setting

[Peter Knutsen]

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.


Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players. The DF1 and 4 PDFs already refer to a lot of specializations in their templats, but a definite statement that these are all that there are unless the GM explicitly says so before game start, would be good. Or if a few more are needed, then include them in the list in the setting PDF.


Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

[b-dog]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.


Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players. The DF1 and 4 PDFs already refer to a lot of specializations in their templats, but a definite statement that these are all that there are unless the GM explicitly says so before game start, would be good. Or if a few more are needed, then include them in the list in the setting PDF.


Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

SJ Games should be looking at getting the rights to Lejendary Adventure which is a really cool setting. It is sort of a pseudo middle age with all of the countries of the world. This setting should be used by someone if not GURPS.

[Captain-Captain]

"Bare Bones" won't do it. The success of DF as a .pdf series will justify a Setting Book (or several). Just to be marketable it'll probably go for $7.95 (though a $4.95 smaller version is possible) and run over 30 pages.

I'm basing this mostly on Riggsby's Tower of Octavius book.

And lots of details. ;)

[b-dog]

I will try to set up a game world and put it on the forums. The world I have in mind is a mix of Ravenloft, Greyhawk, Stormbringer, Call of Cthulhu, Tolkien, and combination of many different myths and medieval times.

[Gavynn]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

At the very least, Dungeon Fantasy needs a list of the languages within the setting, both living culture languages, special languages (Elemental Language, e.t.c.) and ancient languages. It's the kind of thing that some players will demand to be told about up front before they create their characters, and the kind of thing that an inexperienced GM will be unable to deliver.

I don't really think that it needs that. If the players are demanding an exhaustive list of the languages of the campaign world before character creations, the GM should just tell them they are not going to get that. The GM can just say, you are from such and such and place and have only had the opportunity to learn so and so. Players with more scholarly backgrounds can work with the GM one on one to come up with what other language or two the character has experience with. Many GMs are not going to be comfortable anyway with establishing a list of languages up front for fear of painting themselves into a corner as the story grows and evolves.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

I'm thinking the best solution would be a pseudo-European setting with a few major countries analogous to England, France, Germany, Spain and Italy, each with their own language, and a few common ancient languages (analogous to Latin, Greek and Arabic) and half a dozen obscure ancient languages (analogous to Egyptian, Babylonian, Sanskrit and so forth). Largely similar history as Europe, with an old empire that split into two parts, then collapsed due to barbarian invasions.

I really don’t think SJG needs to expend resources on something like this. Many gamers are familiar enough with basic European history to swipe it for “their campaign history” and wouldn’t need to buy a copy of “GURPS: Europe with all the Serial Numbers Filed Off.” But in the event that you do need something like that written out for a campaign word, just Google “History of Europe.” The first hit should be the Wikipedia entry for “History of Europe.” Copy that into a word processor and then start running search and replaces to change the names. Find and replace all “Rome” with “Alsteria” and all “France” with “Groumberwalden” and so forth and so on and you have your campaign history. Likewise with the languages. There is a Wikipedia entry for “Languages of Europe.” Copy it over to a word processor and start changing the names if you feel you need such a document to give the players at character creation.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Likewise, a master list of all Hidden Lore specializations would be good, because it prevents the GM from inventing new ones to thwart the players.

I completely do not understand this. Why would the GM be required to tell the players all the hidden lore specialties of the game before they encounter them? Why would they know something hidden before discovering it? Sounds meta-game to me.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Basically, there are a bunch of character creation questions that aren't answered in the PDFs published so far, and leaving it up to GM decision is doing a disservice to inexperienced GMs, because either they don't know that they have to make those decisions before gamestart, or else if a player demands it they will not be able to make good decisions that can stand throughout the campaign.

Well, as you point out, the setting is left for the GM. It does not cover that. While some GMs will want to have EVERYTHING worked out ahead of time, actually I more often find the mistake of the inexperienced GM is to think he or she MUST have all of that 110% worked out. Likewise if the players are demanding a complete list of all languages and hidden lore specialties of the game word at the outset of character creation, and inexperienced GM might think he or she should be able to give that to them and might even think he or she is being a bad GM for not having that at hand, whereas the experiences GM will simply tell them “No.”

[Highland_Piper]

I disagree. I feel that if SJG started applying a specific setting to Dungeon Fantasy it would start to constrain it and not allow it to just develop in a way, which I feel, gives Dungeon Fantasy it's uniqueness.

As it stands you can use DF for any of the old school games. Dungeons and Dragons, Tunnels and Trolls, Warhammer Fantasy, heck even Palladium Fantasy. All those settings can be used with GURPS Dungeon Fantasy and all the GM has to do is make a few monsters*.

Even placing it in a "bare-bones setting" will start to introduce guide lines and maybe restrain the type of monsters or magic you find.

I would like to add that GURPS Dungeon Fantasy could be used to recreate your favourite hack and slash video game. Two of my favorites, Dungeon Siege and Diablo offer a great back drop for DF. Do you like board games? Mage Knight or Descent would also make a good back drop for DF.

My personal DF game is played completely underground. The characters never get to the surface. Towns which I call "Warrens" abound throughout the series of levels and caverns. Pocket dimensions (never larger than a square mile) can be found throughout my DF world allowing brief views into Faierie realms, Demonic, Elemental realms giving my DF a very Old school and New School Video game feel to it.

Now I would more than agree with you that DF needs some DF style adventure modules!

*It is my opinion that when using any setting in GURPS, be it Fantasy, Modern, Supers, Sci-Fi that you use the setting only and stick with GURPS rules. Its the setting you want, so why bother with "converting" rules, stats, etc.

also what Gavynn said ;-)

[chris1982]

Was I the only one thinking abour skeleton warriors when reading bare-bones setting? :-)

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Highland_Piper

I disagree. I feel that if SJG started applying a specific setting to Dungeon Fantasy it would start to constrain it and not allow it to just develop in a way, which I feel, gives Dungeon Fantasy it's uniqueness.

Where have I said that there should be a specific setting for DF?

[TheNinjaD]

Originally Posted by chris1982

Was I the only one thinking abour skeleton warriors when reading bare-bones setting? :-)

Probably...but now I can't not think about them.

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Where have I said that there should be a specific setting for DF?

The very title of the thread states that you think there should be a setting for Dungeon Fantasy. I also disagree. I think the point of Dungeon Fantasy is that there is no setting. It is made to pretty much be hack and slash. Fantasy, on the other hand, is thataway.

[Evil Roy Slade]

Originally Posted by Peter Knutsen

Where have I said that there should be a specific setting for DF?

Yeah, I suppose your using the words "Dungeon Fantasy" "needs" and "setting" in the thread title could lead some people to think that Dungeon Fantasy needs a setting.