The THS Spaceship Thread

[thtraveller]

Another good design.

Originally Posted by Kitsune

MRF-5 PDV "Störtebecker"

Technically it could land on Mars, deploy a group of soldiers, and, after picking them up again, fly back into an orbit. (Since the MRF-5 is equipped with a fusion drive, this would be illegal, though).

Is it canon that it is illegal to use nuclear engines on Mars? I seem to recall it being hinted at but not actually explicitly stated.

Design: Streamlined cylinder (12' x 50', 11.52 spaces, nanocomposite, heavy frame, smart hull); cDR/cPF 21/2F, 5/1S, 5/1B (nanocomposite armor). Hull radiators (2 ksf), folding radiator wings (1 ksf).

I would be tempted to reduce side armor cDR and try and eliminate the radiator wings if possible - as these are mass sinks.

Modules: New cockpit; small ladar; small radar; small PESA;

Did you mean for some or all of these to be fixed sensors? I am 0.38 spaces over budget and 3 tons over mass. Otherwise I am pretty close on the other stats.

For the civilian unstreamlined version see here: http://www.thtraveller.dsl.pipex.com...diaExpress.htm ;-)

[Kitsune]

Did you mean for some or all of these to be fixed sensors? I am 0.38 spaces over budget and 3 tons over mass. Otherwise I am pretty close on the other stats.

Puuuh. As for the space, it wasn't easy to find my mistake. I had counted the light laser tower with the spaces and mass of a laser. And since I had to use up nearly all of the space, I cannot compensate this. :(
Ok then, the Störtebecker will have to do with a light laser without tower then...
As far as the weight is concerned, after re- and rerechecking, my values seem to be correct (except for the M€ 0.8 difference because of the tower). Could it be that you have claculated front armor with cDR 21? I have just calculated with cDR 15, since, with streamlining, this gives an REAL end cDR of 21 (15 x 1.4 = 21). If that would be true, this would account for around 2.9 t difference (with the tower mistake 3.7t).
Otherwise, I can't find a mistake as far as the weight is concerned.

I would be tempted to reduce side armor cDR and try and eliminate the radiator wings if possible - as these are mass sinks.

I was tempted as well. But I need the radiator wings because to prevent overheating, and using non foldable wings would make the MRF-5 too vulnerable if attacked. And the side armor...well, the PDV is meant to transport troops, and provide them with at least a minimal degree of protection. It's a military vessel after all.

Is it canon that it is illegal to use nuclear engines on Mars?

I'm afraid yes: THS p. 190, read the paragraph titled "Air Speed".

For the civilian unstreamlined version see here: http://www.thtraveller.dsl.pipex.co...ndiaExpress.htm ;-)

THX !!! That's a great design. And something I can use very well in my campaign. Thanks for sharing. :)))

[Jame]

That's odd. I always pronounced it "Fo-mal-howt..." Thanks for the ship!

[thtraveller]

Partly in response to the Nadezhda and partly because they were already
working together on other similar projects a joint venture between Xiao Chu
and MAST have produced a prototype living passenger aircraft.

The design goals emphasised something with a completely different mission
profile than the Nadezhda. They focussed on a small practical atmospheric
craft rather than a showy and somewhat impractical interplanetary craft.

The geneticists and engineers were given requirements of maximising the
biological, minimising the cost and making it as low maintenance as possible.
The Manta is what they came up with.

The Manta's base shape is that of a standard streamlined delta but with a
responsive structure and biomechanical frame. They also made it sapient, which they have found to be a very mixed blessing. There have been as many problems with the crafts 'personality' as there have engineering problems.

During flight operation the ship flexes in a biological way that onlookers
find disturbing in an aircraft. While passengers have complained it makes them
feel seasick.

The chameleon skin also allows the craft to express its personality. Its
regular crew having taught it to do set piece skin displays for demonstrations
the craft has developed its own embellishments that it varies depending on its
whims and is developing quite a reputation for amusing and artistic displays.
Sometimes taking on the appearance of different animals and other times
mirroring the colourations of regular aircraft complete with insignia. The
pair of eyes that flow over the surface following and 'watching' visiting
dignitaries or mechanics is a favourite as is making its doorway look like a
gaping mouth or other bodily orifices.

The engine is a small fission air-ram that allows it remain aloft indefinitely
at supersonic speeds though it seems to prefer minimum speed flying. Having
broken the sound barrier once the craft seems reluctant to do it again. The
mildly radioactive engine housing also makes the craft feel antsy and it
refuses to fly without regular anti-radiation nano .

The craft is fitted with a small cockpit but after hundreds of hours aloft the
craft can fly itself better than any pilot and it is growing to resent being
'man-handled'.

One positive engineering feature of the design is that it only needs a landing
strip of under a 100 yards long and 10 yards wide. As it weighs no more than a moderate delivery vehicle it can take off and land on ordinary roads or other
hard surface.

The prototype has however met reliability and performance targets and the
production version is already on the drawing board though heated arguments are still taking place about whether it should be sapient or not...


Manta-class passenger bio-aircraft:

Design: 28ft Streamlined Delta (1.4 spaces, Nanocomposite, Lifting Body,
Smart, Responsive, Biomechanical, Light frame); cDr/cPF 0.2/1FSB
(Nanocomposite armor), Chameleon surface

Modules: Old Cockpit, Very Small PESA, Very Small Radar, Very Small Ladar,
0.25 Fission air-ram, 1 passenger seating (16 seats),

Statistics: LMass 5.1, CMass 5.1, Dry Mass 5.1, EMass 3.4,
Payload mass 1.7, Cost M$ 1.7, cHP 5, Size Modifier [hull] 4/1,
Maintenance interval 55.4 hours (1.7 hours per day)

Performance: sAccel, Empty sAccel 1.48 G,
Air speed (Earth) 2400 mph, Stall speed 77 mph, Takeoff run 76 yards.

Payload: Crew 1, Seated passengers 16, Cargo 0 tons
Dietary requirements 9 man days rations per day plus anti-radiation
supplements.

[Kitsune]

Another entry:


From the moment that the first SDV-90 entered service in 2091, System Technologies and Vosper-Babbage ran a program whose objective was to evaluate the performance of the vessels, to collect experiences and to prepare the development of an improved version. Work on an enhanced version, termed SDV-90U, began in earnest in 2098 (prompted in particular by somewhat sobering results of combat exercises with American DFS-2 Angel Class SDVs) and was completed four years later. In mid 2102, the German MoD agreed to finance the upgrade being applied to the Bundesraumwaffe vessel "Mimung", which was turned to a SDV-90U type until early 2103. In the spring of that year, the ship entered a series of test flights which are scheduled to last until the end of August 2103, closely watched by the German and British militaries. Based upon the results of these it will be decided by German and British authorities wether other SDV-90 vessels in service of the RNSS or the Bundesraumwaffe, or even all of them, will be upgraded.

The substantial changes during the refitting process were based upon the experiences made by crews of Gram/Resolution class vessels during numerous operations and military exercises, especially those with other space forces, both European and international. The complete metal-matrix armor of the SDV-90 is replaced by considerably more effective nanocomposite armor, the ship's laser array is improved and the side coilgun is replaced by a second coilgun facing to the front. Also, a battery pack is installed which enables the ship to use all its weapon and primary sensor systems continously for half an hour. As far as the sensors are concerned, the two large PESA systems are replaced by one very powerful main PESA array and a smaller emergency replacement system. The upgrade follows the tendency to a smaller human crew, accordingly, the number of cabins is reduced and one of the two very heavy storm shelters of the original design is taken out. The large space dock hangar of the SDV-90 is replaced by a smaller, specialized vehicle bay which is taylored for a MRF-5 PDV. Because of the important role that AKVs play in space battles, the number of external cradles has been increased from four to twelve. The refitted "Mimung" also switched from using SIM-7 Predator Class AKVs to using MRF-1 Griffin Class AKVs. That all of these are externally carried instead inside the SDV is faciliating their deployment in a combat situation. The radiator wings are unchanged and still measure 274' x 274'. The usual payload of an SDV-90U, including twelve Griffin AKVs and one Störtebeker PDV, is 2,004 tons, compared to 1,231.8 tons of an original SDV-90. Despite this, the upgraded version reaches a slighty higher acceleration and final Delta-V than its predecessor.

A new SDV-90U would have a price tag of M€ 1,046.88. The process of upgrading an old SDV-90 costs M€ 400 and takes at least half a year.





System Technologies Astrion / Vosper-Babbage SDV-90U (Upgraded Gram and Resolution Classes)


Crew:
Commander (Leadership, Shiphandling, Tactics); Pilot (Piloting (High-Performance Spacecraft)); Navigator (Astrogation, Electronics Operation (Communications), Electronic Operation (Sensors)); 3 Weapons Officers (Gunner (Beams), Gunner (Railgun)); 20 Engineers (Mechanic (Fusion Drive), Mechanic (Robotics), other Mechanic as appropiate); Medic (Diagnosis, Physician, Surgery); Mission Specialist (Electronics Operation (Sensors), Intelligence Analysis, SIGINT Collection/Jamming, Traffic Analysis).
The usual human/parahuman crew of a SDV-90U numbers eight or nine persons, the others are infomorphs. The ship has enough additional room to carry up to 12 battlesuit-equipped human/parahuman infantry and associated equipment.

Design:
Cylinder hull (1,500 spaces, metal-matrix composite, heavy frame, smart); cDR/cPF 90/10F, 5/1S, 20/2B (nanocomposite armor). Hull radiators (37,5 ksf), folding radiator wings (150 ksf). Chameleon surface.

Modules:
New command bridge; 2 large ladar; large PESA +2, medium PESA; 2 large radar; 375 HI fusion pulse drive; 750 tanks (ultralight, nuclear pellets); 8 10-MJ heavy laser towers [S]; 4 10-MJ heavy laser towers [F]; 10 2.5-MJ light laser towers [S]; 3 coilguns [F/F/B]; 350' new particle accelerator [F]; 5 cabin; 3 bunkroom; 1 heavy storm shelter (2-space: encloses bridge, cPF 1,000); 12 external cradles (125 tons each); minifac workshop; large entry module; vehicle bay (Störtebeker PDV: 115 tons, 0,17 ksf; 12.5 spaces); surgery; 1 battery; 72 cargo (360 tons).

Statistics:
EMass 7,260; CMass 14,129; LMass 18,628. Cost M€ 1,046.88. cHP 1,920. Size Modifier [Hull] +6/+10, [Radiators] +10. HT 12. Maintenance Interval: 1.24 hours. RRA 187.

Performance:
sAcc: 0.11 G. Burn Endurance: 50 hours. Burn Points: 19,800. Delta-V: 60.5 mps. No air speed.

[thtraveller]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

Another entry. ...SDV90u...

Good idea.

All seem sensible upgrades. I note that Nanocomposite and Metal matrix have similar densities too so existing cabling, etc should still fit.

The refitted "Mimung" also switched from using SIM-7 Predator Class AKVs to using MRF-1 Griffin Class AKVs. That all of these are externally carried instead inside the SDV is faciliating their deployment in a combat situation.

Though the lack of a spacedock means you can't repair one with combat damage easily.

The radiator wings are unchanged and still measure 274' x 274'.

Though with the reduced hull radiators its reserve is impacted, and its combat endurance with radiators closed is strongly impacted.

A new SDV-90U would have a price tag of M€ 1,046.13. The process of upgrading an old SDV-90 costs M€ 400 and takes at least half a year.

The new armor plus PESAs alone cost nearly M€ 420 plus the cost of removing old armor and removing and refixing all surface features.

Though the old PESAs and armor should be reusable which should claw back a significant chunk of this.

73 cargo (375 tons).

365 tons?

Statistics:

I generally get within a couple of percent on stats. Though I am around 360 tons lighter on EMASS (which oddly is the mass of +2 PESA bonus).

You don't seem to have any space left. There is nowhere to put the coilgun ammo packs. The original SDV-90 had 27 packs at 0.5 spaces, 9.5 tons each. Or are these counted in cargo space?

[Kitsune]

Originally Posted by thtraveller

Though the lack of a spacedock means you can't repair one with combat damage easily.

True. But then, the vehicle bay is almost one space larger than the Störtebeker and this is an age of teleoperation and advanced cybershells who come in all sizes, so many repairs should still be possible. A pressurized hangar certainly has its merits but in the end I decided for the vehicle bay solution.

Originally Posted by thtraveller

Though with the reduced hull radiators its reserve is impacted, and its combat endurance with radiators closed is strongly impacted.

Heh, heh. In combat, the old SDV-90 can last 5.6 rounds without radiatior wings before overheating, while the SDV-90U can do almost exactly 5 rounds (5.003 rounds), so the actual effects in battle are more limited than one would expect. But it is tight, no question.

Originally Posted by thtraveller

365 tons?

Ups...you're right. 365 tons it is. (Nitpick...)

Originally Posted by thraveller

Though I am around 360 tons lighter on EMASS (which oddly is the mass of +2 PESA bonus).

375 tons...I forgot to subtract the cargo load.

Originally Posted by thraveller

You don't seem to have any space left. There is nowhere to put the coilgun ammo packs. The original SDV-90 had 27 packs at 0.5 spaces, 9.5 tons each. Or are these counted in cargo space?

I have included 27 ammo-packs for the coilgun in the payload but I assumed that they are transported in the cargo hold. It didn't occur to me to leave unused space for it, space in which ammo packs are transported isn't entirely unused after all. If you think that should be done otherwise, simply reduce the cargo by one space or a half to gain the leftover space, although that has of course no real effects on any stats.

[thtraveller]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I have included 27 ammo-packs for the coilgun in the payload but I assumed that they are transported in the cargo hold. It didn't occur to me to leave unused space for it, space in which ammo packs are transported isn't entirely unused after all. If you think that should be done otherwise, simply reduce the cargo by one space or a half to gain the leftover space, although that has of course no real effects on any stats.

Yup. No real effect. It just makes the accounting easier to list them separately as the ammo packs have density 19 rather the normal cargo density of 5.

[Negentropist]

Kitsune, I’d like to build on what you did and take it in a different direction. Yes, the SDV-90’s second 2-space heavy storm shelter is a huge amount of mass, and removing it gives you lots of options.

So what if instead of a more expensive design, the goal is to win where most sales are – the LSDV market -- by modifying this proven design to create something more powerful and versatile than any LSDV but cheaper than any SDV?

To keep our troop-carrying ability, instead of deleting the second shelter let’s merge the two into a single 4-space shelter. Now, the 2 space shelter has 1.27 times more volume/mass than the 1-space does, which makes sense since 1.27 is roughly the cube root of 2. So let’s assume that the 4-space heavy storm shelter similarly has 1.27 times the mass of a 2-spacer, which is actually a conservative figure since the wall thickness will not increase as the diameter increases. Thus the merging of the shelters will save us 1,226 tons, 15 spaces, and $12.3M.

Let’s bring the bow armor up to match the best LSDVs. 15 points will give us 70/20F, mass 150 tons and cost $9M.

Now to save the big bucks: Change the fuel tanks from Ultralight to Light materials. That saves $70M (which also cuts your maintenance effort/engineer requirement). It also adds 503 tons, but net-net we’re still lighter by 573 tons.

Fill the 15 spaces with expanded living quarters/troop training rooms, and you’ve got a ship that’s cheaper than the LSDV-5, not much more expensive than the Sun LSDV, far more flexible and powerful than either, and with only easy-to-implement changes from the existing, proven design.

Plus the shelter merge and bow armor upgrade can be done to existing ships for additional revenue.

[Kitsune]

I like your ideas, Negentropist. If possible, come up with a short introduction about who planned and build this ship (which company/military or so) and then just feel free to publish the stats of the resulting spaceship here in this thread - that's what it is for.