So... Heavy Gear

[GoblynByte]

Originally Posted by Jbuckmaster

This is where it gets tricky (again, standard disclaimer, no guarantees, etc). I want all the TN info to be set at a specific default year so we don't have issues like with the leaguebooks where some leaguebooks were written after certain events, leaving you with a giant blank and a useless book if you wanted to run stuff there before year X. So, the stuff on TN, probably won't require you to know the metaplot or care. If it does, it should explicitly note what info you need to use it, along with some options for using it with different setups.

If/when we get to colonies, well, most of them don't enter the picture until after a certain date, so that date becomes the default year for that colony, and all info outside of story stuff is set in that year.

Ideally, this should minimize confusion, maximize usefulness and let people actually PLAY and have fun.

-John

Well, I went ahead and edited the post just in case. I mean, I think mentioning that is like telling me (born in '76) that Kennedy was assassinated. To anyone coming into the story line now it will have been already done and thus will likely appear in any book on the subject. I mean, people in this thread have already mentioned the Earth invasion, and from the perspective of Blitz it's already happened. And [fnord] assassination happens well before that.

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by GoblynByte

Well, I went ahead and edited the post just in case. I mean, I think mentioning that is like telling me (born in '76) that Kennedy was assassinated. To anyone coming into the story line now it will have been already done and thus will likely appear in any book on the subject. I mean, people in this thread have already mentioned the Earth invasion, and from the perspective of Blitz it's already happened. And [fnord] assassination happens well before that.

Actually, no. We mentioned the War of the Alliance, the Earth Invasion where they discovered that hovertanks have lots of fiddly-bits that sand really likes to get into. And the 3rd Edition Rule Book, and the 3rd Edition Terra Nova Companion don't bring any of the story-line up anymore than the first rule book did (have that around here, too). They're pretty much the beginning of the game. I don't have access to the books right now, but I think their time stamp is TN1936. So, it's before anything happened.

[GoblynByte]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Actually, no. We mentioned the War of the Alliance, the Earth Invasion where they discovered that hovertanks have lots of fiddly-bits that sand really likes to get into. And the 3rd Edition Rule Book, and the 3rd Edition Terra Nova Companion don't bring any of the story-line up anymore than the first rule book did (have that around here, too). They're pretty much the beginning of the game. I don't have access to the books right now, but I think their time stamp is TN1936. So, it's before anything happened.

The first rulebook was 1933. The first storyline book (Crisis of Faith) took the storyline from 1933 to 1935 which bleeds over into the Second Edition rulebook. The second eition rulebook took place in 1934, one year of events advanced from the first edition rulebook. The next two storyline books, written during the second edition, take place from 1935 to 1939 and 1939 to 1941. The first solid evidence of infiltration from Earth occurs then with some of the 2nd edition rulebooks taking the storyline beyond 1941...well into the Earth invasion. The most 'recent' book I have (from the perspective of the timeline) is the Black Talon book which is dated 1941 and this is after the Earthlings invade and Terra Nova is initiating a counter strike. I sort of dropped the storyline books after the third, so I don't know much else about info outside the rulebooks, but unless the 3rd edition (of which I know very little) takes the storyline back to 1933 (and the time frame from the perspective of the first edition rulebook, thus predating the second edition rulebook) I find it hard to believe that the 4th edition rulebooks will show a time period before [fnord] assassination. I could be wrong, though.

And the 3rd Edition Rule Book, and the 3rd Edition Terra Nova Companion don't bring any of the story-line up anymore than the first rule book did

Do you mean the 3rd edition was written for the time period before 1941? What you're telling me is that 3rd edition takes it back to 1933 (first edition)? That's actually kind of silly. What about Blitz? What time period does that depict?

[RevBob]

Originally Posted by Jbuckmaster

This is where it gets tricky (again, standard disclaimer, no guarantees, etc). I want all the TN info to be set at a specific default year so we don't have issues like with the leaguebooks where some leaguebooks were written after certain events, leaving you with a giant blank and a useless book if you wanted to run stuff there before year X. So, the stuff on TN, probably won't require you to know the metaplot or care. If it does, it should explicitly note what info you need to use it, along with some options for using it with different setups.

That sounds like the sort of metaplot that I personally don't care for, but I'm not sure.

My classic example of an objectionable metaplot is what White Wolf did with their original World of Darkness. They set up a history and various factions, and that was cool. They told some stories using characters who then became recognizable, and that was also cool...until those characters started affecting the game world. The breaking point for me was when Vampire Third Edition changed key rules and setting details due solely to the metaplot - Thaumaturgy became more difficult "just because," a large chunk of the Ravnos clan was summarily killed, and so on. Due to the degree to which the metaplot was bound to the rules, V3e was useless to me unless I chose to adhere to the metaplot...so I went from being someone who purchased the complete line to someone who completely stopped buying it.

[Mark Skarr]

Well, the metaplot in Heavy Gear doesn’t so much change rules as it changes the balance of power. It’s more like GURPS World War II than BattleTech. Major, massive events happen, but the fundamental game doesn’t change. Unlike the Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere. Or, most of the events in BattleTech. Plus, the events are spread out over many cycles (the Terra Novan year), so all the changes aren’t felt at once. Kinda like real life.

Unlike BattleTech, the technology base doesn’t take a gigantic leap. So, the game in TN1933 is exactly the same in TN1941. Just who your friends are, and where you developed that nasty cough from may have changed. The game world has changed, but the game system has stayed the same.

Nothing is forcing you to use the metaplot (I know you know that). I also appreciate, and would be supportive, of removing the current year from the core books, as John (Jbuckmaster) has suggested. That way, you’ll have the same history and information as everyone else, and those of us who enjoy the metaplot can continue to follow it, while you still have enough information to play the game.

But, don’t worry about the system changing on you because of the metaplot. I’d be more worried (okay, not so much worried as elated) that the system transformed into GURPS.

And, if you do play it, and someone says they found a really cool “gear” in an official Dream Pod 9 book, make sure the cover doesn’t say Jovian Chronicles. ;-) I’m sorry, RevBob, I don’t have a 3rd copy of the Terra Nova Companion that I could send you. RPK is getting my spare.

[GoblynByte]

Originally Posted by Mark Skarr

Well, the metaplot in Heavy Gear doesn’t so much change rules as it changes the balance of power. It’s more like GURPS World War II than BattleTech. Major, massive events happen, but the fundamental game doesn’t change. Unlike the Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere. Or, most of the events in BattleTech. Plus, the events are spread out over many cycles (the Terra Novan year), so all the changes aren’t felt at once. Kinda like real life.

Unlike BattleTech, the technology base doesn’t take a gigantic leap. So, the game in TN1933 is exactly the same in TN1941. Just who your friends are, and where you developed that nasty cough from may have changed. The game world has changed, but the game system has stayed the same.

Nothing is forcing you to use the metaplot (I know you know that). I also appreciate, and would be supportive, of removing the current year from the core books, as John (Jbuckmaster) has suggested. That way, you’ll have the same history and information as everyone else, and those of us who enjoy the metaplot can continue to follow it, while you still have enough information to play the game.

But, don’t worry about the system changing on you because of the metaplot. I’d be more worried (okay, not so much worried as elated) that the system transformed into GURPS.

And, if you do play it, and someone says they found a really cool “gear” in an official Dream Pod 9 book, make sure the cover doesn’t say Jovian Chronicles. ;-) I’m sorry, RevBob, I don’t have a 3rd copy of the Terra Nova Companion that I could send you. RPK is getting my spare.

Yeah, each book had a year on the back of the book noting from what perspective in the timeline it was written. This was generally cool 'cause each new book gave you new information and lead you along a story without ever really noticing. The only downside to this was when they came to the league books. There are 7 leagues (8 if you count the city state of Peace River in the Bad Lands) and each has its own character much like contries do on Earth. Learning about them was absolutely a blast, but since each book was advanced a little bit along the time line they each featured information specific to that perspective. So one league book will talk about, say, league A having a good relationship with league B, but when you buy the book for league B it says that relations deteriorated and now those two leagues are at war. Not game wrecking, but jarring, I think.

If we look back at games that involved metaplots I can't help but think that, while it is a neat idea, I think it 'dates' your fan base. What I mean is that when the game starts (let's say at year 0) you get a solid fan base that will follow the gameline into new territories, new editions, and new directions. As the game matures, so do they and they keep with it. But as the storyline matures you increase the gap of knowledge needed to get started and decrease your chance of bringing in new gamers. What effect that has on sales I have no idea, but I've seen that conflict of attitudes many times to know that it must be a factor.

Now, before anyone says "you don't need to know what came before to get started," look at your average gamer. If you're not 100% up to speed you're going to get trounced and eaten alive by the veterans. Knowledge is power in this hobby and if you don't have it you're not "in." Period. I've seen it all the time where a new gamer tries to enjoy the hobby and is taken out back and beaten for making rookie mistakes (metaphorically speaking, of course).

So metaplots create a barrier of accesibility to gamers who want to come into the game in its later years. I have had this problem with Shadowrun. I really enjoy reading the books but I always feel like I'm missing something because I didn't get into it until late in its 3rd edition. So I find myself feeling like I'm missing important pieces and that turns me off. I can still play it, and I can still enjoy it, but I know that I have to be careful who I game it with because I know some munchkin might attempt to pull something out of the depths of Shadowrun canon that I'm unarmed to defend against.

[Jbuckmaster]

Yeah, this is why I said what I did.... (again, disclaimerising goes here, because I honestly have no clue if this will work out or not)

The original Leaguebooks are spread out between TN1934 and TN1937ish, and there's a big lump of stuff that happens in the setting overall during that time, which leads to some major issues if you pick up the Mekong book and want to run your game without any of the plot happening.

I would like the TN info to all be set in the year X (as noted above), thus giving everyone who buys the main book a chance to either run with the plot, or ignore it outright. Since the colonies are encountered later, they get another year X, because everything is pretty much from the PoV of the Terra Novans. This would be made clear on the blurbs for the books, so we'd have:

TN books: all set in same date, no other books (well other than your Main book) needed to enjoy your book.
Colony Books: set later, but we should try to include info so there's less books needed and you can modify easily.
Adventures: as per setting. If it's plot-related, we tell you and give you non-plot options.
Ideally, there would be an appendix in each major setting book that expands upon an appendix in the main book. this would detail how the story affects the given setting up to date X, so this way, you can choose what you want and what you don't.

-John

[Jbuckmaster]

Originally Posted by GoblynByte

No apology needed, and I apologize for coming back at you the way I did. It was before my morning cofee and I think it just hit me the wrong way.

I may very well have misunderstood the fella at GenCon. To be fair he had a very thick French accent and he and I were discussing the fact that I enjoyed the way Blitz sounded because it made the smaller scale of the machines seem more appropriate.

I'm Canadian, I must apologize. I'm sorry if this bothers you ;)

Phil's English has gotten a lot better, and I think I see where the confusion came from now. The game "scale" is much closer to the figure scale, so we're fighting on a much smaller chunk of land. And in Franglais, that probably would come out very poorly...

-John

[Mark Skarr]

Originally Posted by Jbuckmaster

Yeah, this is why I said what I did.... (again, disclaimerising goes here, because I honestly have no clue if this will work out or not)

The original Leaguebooks are spread out between TN1934 and TN1937ish, and there's a big lump of stuff that happens in the setting overall during that time, which leads to some major issues if you pick up the Mekong book and want to run your game without any of the plot happening.

That was one of my biggest problems with several of the books, my game's timeline hadn't progressed quite as far as the "official" time line and the League Book assumed that it had. And there's that nasty cough again. Curse you Southern Republic!
It actually led to the previous campaign ending prematurely and starting a Black Talons game (where Ziggy attempted, on a regular basis, to add radioactive craters to my game world! That's the last time I give him WMDs for space combat).

Originally Posted by Jbuckmaster

I'm Canadian, I must apologize. I'm sorry if this bothers you ;)

Other than anexing you when I become president (and claiming such things as Hockey and Shania Twain as national treasures) Canada generally doesn't enter into my plans for world domination.

[GoblynByte]

Originally Posted by Jbuckmaster

Phil's English has gotten a lot better, and I think I see where the confusion came from now. The game "scale" is much closer to the figure scale, so we're fighting on a much smaller chunk of land. And in Franglais, that probably would come out very poorly...

-John

When I first discovered Heavy Gear I thought how cool it was that the gears were more 'personal' sized than the 40-story tall Battletech machines. Then the fact that they used the nNets to increase their "personality" just added icing to the cake. It filled the imaginary battlefields with such cool moments and ideas. Then I looked at the tactical combat system where one hex could represent multiple trees or even a city block. It seemed to borrow the scale of landscape from Battletech and I felt that it just robbed the tactical system of that personal feel. You couldn't have gears 'digging in' behind rubbled buildings because terrain was so abstracted as to be bland and meaningless.

That's mainly what the conversation was about at GenCon (I honestly don't know if if was the Phil you mention or not). When he mentioned that the blitz rules were going to bring that scale down to match the size of the gears I was very impressed and told him how much more appropriate I felt it was. Again, at some point that translated in my brain that there would be a matching scale change in the miniatures. Glad to hear I misunderstood. ;)