Parry a Slam?

[stilleon]

I was playing GURPS this weekend. The GM had a ST 12 dude slam me. I am a fencer, armed with a saber. So he comes at me and I decide my options. Turns out parry is on the table, but the GM warns me that I might break my saber because the slammer is considered a heavy weapon.

Here is my problem with these rules. The slammer weighs about 150lbs, lets say. All his motion contains a lot of energy because of his mass. A saber is a weapon with a lot less mass. Seems to me that a saber (or any sword) would find it impossible to deflect the mass of the slammer. Why?

1. The sword would not have enough mass, even if swung, to deflect the amss of the body.
2. The body is made of tissue, which is kid of soft. Unless dressed in plate mail or something it would probably push the blade back, not snap it. Also, the wrist of the defender would probably bend because his muscles will give way from the force of the blow.

So, it seems to me that the rules should have the parry automatically fail unless there are exceptional circumstances.

The only exception would be to aggressively parry, hitting the enemy as he comes in (he is exposing himself to attack) without his blade snapping, or to set the blade so the slammer will impale himself (which I think would take a ready maneuver). Maybe there should be a "Fast-Set" technique to react to slams and their ilk.

Thoughts?

[jindra34]

no, one way is through deflection, diverting them onto a path that does not run into you.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by jindra34

no, one way is through deflection, diverting them onto a path that does not run into you.

But isn't that more of a judo move, using a sword to push?

[Kromm]

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by stilleon

So, it seems to me that the rules should have the parry automatically fail unless there are exceptional circumstances.

The only exception would be to aggressively parry, hitting the enemy as he comes in (he is exposing himself to attack) without his blade snapping, or to set the blade so the slammer will impale himself (which I think would take a ready maneuver). Maybe there should be a "Fast-Set" technique to react to slams and their ilk.

Thoughts?

1.) Weapon parries are automatically aggressive vs. unarmed attacks, including slams (except weapon slams, obviously). If you parry, he takes damage.

2.) According to MA, fencing parries have a Dodge component to them as well, using your weapon to draw the attack out of line enough for you to dodge it.

But yeah, I agree that Basic GURPS rules leave something to be desired when it comes to simulating parrying very heavy objects (like people). Personally, I'd apply GULLIVER's "oomph" rules. You're parrying a 150-pound guy with Basic Lift 28.8, which gives an oomph of 178.8. You're using a 2-pound sabre, and I'll assume you also have Basic Lift 28.8, which gives you an oomph of 30.8. With an oomph ratio of 5.8:1, the table here says that's a -4 to parry. I'd call that fair.

-Max

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by Kromm

You can parry a slam just fine: brace your weapon against the other arm, your shield, etc., and push him away. That counts as a parry (remember: per GURPS Martial Arts, weapon skills all include the ability to shove and slam with weapons, so doing so defensively isn't anything special). The catch is that slams count as weapons with weight = attacker's ST. This is a medium-sized to large problem for ST 12+ attackers (the sort of people who like to slam) vs. the typical run of light melee weapons. Even a ST 10 man has a good chance of snapping your broadsword, and a ST 15 thug has decent odds of snapping your bastard sword.

Okay, that seems to be the way a basic fighter might do it. But being around people that are trained with swords), I would say that they would rather do a dodge and swing the sword to give a blow. Their sword would never break because they wouldn't allow it, the maneuver you speak of would probably be taught AGAINST.

Which brings me to the other thing about defending against slams:

Say the slammer is moving at 6 yards/sec. This is far slower than a swung weapon and you can see it coming. Shouldn't active defenses be easier?

It just seem that slams are more useful in this game than real life (except maybe sumo or World Wrestling Entertainment).

BTW: That would be an awesome PDF: Professional Wrestling for Martial Arts. Rules for bouncing off the ropes, clotheslining, the back breaker, a flying forearm smash... it would be awesome.

[pawsplay]

The Roman army conquered most of Europe by going slam, bash, stab, slam, bash, stab.

[stilleon]

Originally Posted by pawsplay

The Roman army conquered most of Europe by going slam, bash, stab, slam, bash, stab.

Reminds me of O.J.'s new website: oj.com/\/\/\ (slash, backslash, slash...etc.)

[Blood Legend]

If you're stuck on the notion that a parry is only swinging the blade into an opposing weapon, picture it like this; A successful parry is slapping them broadside in the head, this puts them off their course while they adjust for balance. A failed parry and a weapon break represents getting it caught on armor and having it bend, warp and break.

[Dienekes]

Originally Posted by stilleon

1. The sword would not have enough mass, even if swung, to deflect the amss of the body.

This one's not too much of a problem, just a matter of considering the variety of actions covered by the GURPS parry. In addition to the several good examples already pointed out, consider a point-first parry that successfully forces the slammer to divert course to avoid being impaled.

2. The body is made of tissue, which is kind of soft. Unless dressed in plate mail or something it would probably push the blade back, not snap it. Also, the wrist of the defender would probably bend because his muscles will give way from the force of the blow.

So, it seems to me that the rules should have the parry automatically fail unless there are exceptional circumstances.

This one's tougher to explain away. I've always scratched my head over 150 lbs of soft tissue snapping a dagger (not knocking it away, not automatically a failed parry, IIRC not automatically a successful counterattack due to Impulsive Boy launching himself at the pointy, or whatever our intuition might suggest is at least as likely as snapping a stubby steel blade on someone's onrushing belly).

I guess some rules are more universal than others: sometimes you have to pick your poison between universal perfect applicability (i.e., rules that describe every collision just like RL) and elegance/playability (i.e., not having hundreds of tenuously-related subsets of rules). This rule does have the look of a compromise for simplicity's sake. And, as pointed out, there are some nice house rules out there.