Dungeon Fantasy Enchantment Power

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Because the FRPGs I'm aping are c. 1979 and don't let PCs make items without lots of pointless trouble. I'm well aware that 3.0/3.5 does let PCs make items relatively easily . . . but I think that's a mistake there, too. It's hard to justify delving if many of the items traditionally considered loot are things you could just make. All it takes is one PC with high Wealth and enchantment skills to make a GM's life hell. I'm not really convinced it's a good thing for the genre, whatever 3.0/3.5's creators might have thought.

In D&D it sort of works because the only real source of wealth involves bashing things, and because serious items take enough XP to enchant that you have to go out and bash monsters fairly often to have the XP free. Also, levelling up to be able to make the 'good stuff' means bashing monsters. That said, it is too easy, IMO (and messes up play balance if the party wizard makes too many or too few items, or charges other PCs too much or too little for them).

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This has seemed kind of curious to me since I've heard it. In D&D, PCs can (and do) make Magic Items, if DF is supposed to let GURPS do the DF subgenre as well as D&D, why the restriction?

Basically because allowing player enchantment into D&D was probably a huge mistake ;)

You've got basically two options with player-driven enchantment.

Either it's slow, and your enchanter holds up everyone else, running up their bills in town, while he makes some magic item, and boring the pants off of them, or it's quick, and he starts pumping out a series of magical items perfectly tailored to the PCs strengths and weaknesses, creating a synergy that PCs don't normally get from dungeon-salvaged loot.

Either way the GM looses control over magical enhancements in the game, and unless he's prepared for the significant "virtual" increase in power he can find himself rapidly wondering what the heck happened.

If you have a player who's willing to build an enchanter, he's basically turning the game into a Monty Haul one, whether the GM wanted it that way or not.


Enchantment schemes that cost the PC unspent XP or CP tend to mitigate things somewhat by slowing down advancement through intrinsic abilities, but at least in D&D enchanter-happy players seem to see it as a good investment because the good gear makes it significantly easier to earn XP later, meaning they make up the investment very very quickly.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Either it's slow, and your enchanter holds up everyone else, running up their bills in town, while he makes some magic item, and boring the pants off of them, or it's quick, and he starts pumping out a series of magical items perfectly tailored to the PCs strengths and weaknesses, creating a synergy that PCs don't normally get from dungeon-salvaged loot.

The points I've put in boldface are my actual objections as the architect of DF.

Slow enchantments add an element of boring not-fun that I've taken huge pains to filter out of GURPS for this series, what with my totally simplified cost-of-living, travel, and foraging rules. Thus, if DF gets enchantment rules, they need to be fast, but . . .

Fast enchantments -- whatever the cost in $ and points -- allow customized items, which is where things get dicey. As long as the GM decides when Haste boots show up as loot, or for sale and at what price, low Basic Move is a drawback. As soon as Haste boots can be produced . . . well, expect nobody to raise Basic Move ever again. A huge part of the fun of old-style dungeon crawls was figuring out what to do with, say, a magic sword that nobody could use. I mean, I saw AD&D magic-users give up magic and dual-class to fighter just to use a cool sword! That's the feel I'm going for here.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by Bruno

Basically because allowing player enchantment into D&D was probably a huge mistake ;)

No, it was a brilliant thing to do, as part of a larger collection of brilliant desing decisions that means that Dungeons & Dragons 3rd Edition is a player-oriented RPG rules systems, whereas almost all other RPG systems in existence, very much including AD&D and GURPS, are GM-oriened.

Originally Posted by Bruno

You've got basically two options with player-driven enchantment.

Either it's slow, and your enchanter holds up everyone else, running up their bills in town, while he makes some magic item, and boring the pants off of them, or it's quick, and he starts pumping out a series of magical items perfectly tailored to the PCs strengths and weaknesses, creating a synergy that PCs don't normally get from dungeon-salvaged loot.

Incorrect. There is a third soluton which means that nobody will ever pump out vast quantities of permanent magic items. And without the enchantment process requiring huge amounts of time.

Originally Posted by Bruno

Either way the GM looses control over magical enhancements in the game, and unless he's prepared for the significant "virtual" increase in power he can find himself rapidly wondering what the heck happened.

The GM not having control is the entire point of D&D3 being a player-oriented system.

Originally Posted by Bruno

If you have a player who's willing to build an enchanter, he's basically turning the game into a Monty Haul one, whether the GM wanted it that way or not.


Enchantment schemes that cost the PC unspent XP or CP tend to mitigate things somewhat by slowing down advancement through intrinsic abilities, but at least in D&D enchanter-happy players seem to see it as a good investment because the good gear makes it significantly easier to earn XP later, meaning they make up the investment very very quickly.

edit: fixed quotes.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This has seemed kind of curious to me since I've heard it. In D&D, PCs can (and do) make Magic Items, if DF is supposed to let GURPS do the DF subgenre as well as D&D, why the restriction?

Once upon a time you had to be something like 9th level to write a scroll (and you had to have some rare monster bit you got for yourself), and 11th level to make permanent items (and they took even more exotic monster bits). Given how long levelling took back then, that's essentially the same as "no PC enchanting", especially as 9th+ level characters were 'name level' lords with lands, wizards' schools, and so on, and not dungeoneers any more.

[Peter Knutsen]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

This has seemed kind of curious to me since I've heard it. In D&D, PCs can (and do) make Magic Items, if DF is supposed to let GURPS do the DF subgenre as well as D&D, why the restriction?

Incorrect.

In AD&D, player characters creating magic items is poorly supported by the rules, and often ends up involving sucking majorly up to the GM.

Only with D&D 3rd Edition were player characters empowered to create the items they wanted to possess, without having to jump millions of hoops and their players manipulating the GM via all sorts of despicable metagame antics.

And this proves my point, excellently, that GURPS Dungeon Fantasy is not an attempt to recreate D&D3, but rather AD&D. Which expains why GURPS DF doesn't float my boat very well.

[Anthony]

The big problem with PC enchantment is that being an enchanter tends to be a job. You don't really make PC smiths, so why should you make PC enchanters?

Frankly, the ability to do slow and sure enchantment is nearly useless to PCs, so I'd be perfectly willing to let PCs create magic swords with Armoury/TL3^ and a perk.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by b-dog

I have a question, how would you make a power for enchanting weapons and magic items instead of using the GURPS enchantment system. For instance, dwarves are supposed to be able to make magical items like swords and armor, yet they really aren't mages, they are just creatures with some sort of magical power that allows them to make enchanted weapons. This is the same for leprechauns, elves and many other magical creatures. Thanks.

Perhaps you could "study" a power with gadget limitations?

[Peter Knutsen]

Kromm has been pretty explicit about GURPS DF being a remake of AD&D, and not of D&D3, and by now you all know that I'd much rather have seen a remake of D&D3. But let's accept Kromm's design goals (after all, nobody is going to try to force me to GM a GURPS DF campaign, ever).

Looking in the 3rd PDF, GURPS Dungeon Fantasy: The Next Level, a few of the species templates have a Perk that gives a -10% monery cost discount on gear with the Elven or Dwarven prefix.

Why not make a full-blown Advantage (not a Perk) that lets the character produce magic items quickly, but at a cost nearly equal to their market purchase value?

Say that a +1 damage sword costs $5000.

editA character with the Enchanter Advantage would then be able to make such a sword in a single day, for market value -10%, or $4500, and character with the Master Enchanter Advantage would be able to make it at market value -20%, which is $4000, also in a single day.

Thus, making any magic items takes 1 day, but it is very costly. Almost as costly as buying it yourself.

Enchanter could cost 20 CPs, and Master Enchanter could cost 50 CP. Both lend themselves very well to the -20% Aspected Limitation, such as "Magic Weapons Only" (even though I think that it should often be a bit more, like -30% or -40%).

One could presume that NPCs can have Genius Enchanter and Supreme Enchanter, which gives a discount of -30% or -40%, but I see no problems with restricting this to NPCs.


Going off on my own, about Aspected for Enchanter, I think that Magic Weapons And Armour only should be -15%, and Magic Weapons or Magic Armour should be -20%.

Anything not to do directly with weapons or armour should be more than -20%, and even more if it is a narrow category.

Likewise, Magic Axes Only or Magic Swords Only, or Magic Mail Only, should be at least -25%, and probably -30% for a specific weapon type like axe or sword.

edits: 1 typo.

[vitruvian]

Why not make a full-blown Advantage (not a Perk) that lets the character produce magic items quickly, but at a cost nearly equal to their market purchase value?

Agreed that this would work just fine, with the proviso that certain items may require special ingredients (beyond money, gems, etc.) which must be gained through another quest.