GURPS Dungeon Fantasy - Precious Metals Prices

[pnewman]

According to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2 (pg 14) copper is worth $62.50/lb, silver $1,000 lb, and gold $20,000 lb. These values match those of the 'historical' values listed in 'Gold in Silver' on GURPS Basic p 515.

I don't think that historical values matter in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign. In a Dungeon Fantasy campaign coins should be so big and low value that a dragon can sleep on a great heaping pile of them and moderately successful adventurers won't even bother to pick up the copper pieces because they are not worth enough to bother to carry them back to town. I think that Dungeon Fantasy should use the suggestion in the next paragraph that "the $ is a one-ounce silver coin, like a silver dollar. A one-ounce gold peice would then be worth $20. At that rate... a pound of gold would be worth $240. In such a world... caravans loaded with gold might actually exist."

Which sounds more like Dungeon Fantasy "The dragons fortune of $100,000 fits in the palm of your hand and weighs 5 pounds" or "The dragons fortune of $100,000 spreads out in a gleaming layer across the floor and weighs more than 400 pounds"?

[Collective_Restraint]

In my current fantasy campaign I use these values for precious metals :

1 copper coin = 0.25$
1 silver coin = 1$
1 gold coin = 20$

I use it for pretty much the same reason you described, huge dragon hoards, caravans loaded with gold, to make gold more common.

[robertsconley]

I find it better to have 1 common coin (silver) and one really valuable coin (gold).

For example I have 1 silver penny = $4 and a gold crown = $1280. The difference is that the gold crown is not only 20 times more valuable but also weight 1 oz (1/16 of a lb) compared to the 1/256 of a lb for a penny. The silver gives me the big heaping piles of coins, the gold crown gives me the really valuable money as a special reward. Plus with this having gold gives you the ooo I am rich feeling. The alternative has to be to use jewels as the high value money. Which is OK but I don't like it being the only alternative.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by pnewman

According to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2 (pg 14) copper is worth $62.50/lb, silver $1,000 lb, and gold $20,000 lb. These values match those of the 'historical' values listed in 'Gold in Silver' on GURPS Basic p 515.

I don't think that historical values matter in a Dungeon Fantasy campaign. In a Dungeon Fantasy campaign coins should be so big and low value that a dragon can sleep on a great heaping pile of them and moderately successful adventurers won't even bother to pick up the copper pieces because they are not worth enough to bother to carry them back to town. I think that Dungeon Fantasy should use the suggestion in the next paragraph that "the $ is a one-ounce silver coin, like a silver dollar. A one-ounce gold peice would then be worth $20. At that rate... a pound of gold would be worth $240. In such a world... caravans loaded with gold might actually exist."

I'm not entirely sure why you think the two can't co-exist. Pure gold may be worth $20,000/lb, but the gold coins may have no more gold in them than the Canadian Loonie, our 1 dollar coin which is "goldish", made with 91.5% Ni, with 8.5% bronze plating (percentages by weight I believe).

If you demand coins that are more authentically "goldish", make it 8.5% gold plating on whatever cheap metal you like for the core (lead is probably traditional, but I recommend going with something harder so they survive handling - brass is pretty cheap).

Just because your currency is debased doesn't mean you need to devalue your gold idols. Otherwise your players may start questioning the effort of moving the 3" thick, 3-feet diameter disk of the Defiled Sun God all the way from the temple back to civilization. It's 2 096 pounds. Sure, that's a lot of money, even split five ways, but if it was 40 days and 40 nights travel to GET to the temple of the Defiled Sun God without a ton of gold (literally), it's going to take forever and a zillion random encounters to get back, assuming they have something that can carry a ton of weight (literally!), especially in such a dense format.

I did that to my PCs once. *giggle*

EDIT: according to DF 2, a gold coin is worth $80, and has no specified weight. If it's pure gold and the gold coins are worth $80 because they contain exactly 80$ worth of gold, you need to make 250 gold coins from a pound of gold to get that kind of worth, and they must be absolutely tiny sequins or something.

If you go with the D&D standard of 50 gold coins to a pound, and assume the filler to be effectively worthless, that means the gold coins are only 20% gold (Which is still pretty good for a fantasy economy, IMO), and you can make 1250 coins from the same pound of gold.

[vitruvian]

According to GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2 (pg 14) copper is worth $62.50/lb, silver $1,000 lb, and gold $20,000 lb. These values match those of the 'historical' values listed in 'Gold in Silver' on GURPS Basic p 515.

Aren't those actually somewhat in the high end of the historical range, actually? I tend to agree that in a world where dragon's hoards and other treasure troves are frequently liberated, the stuff would tend to be less valuable per pound.

I think that Dungeon Fantasy should use the suggestion in the next paragraph that "the $ is a one-ounce silver coin, like a silver dollar. A one-ounce gold peice would then be worth $20. At that rate... a pound of gold would be worth $240. In such a world... caravans loaded with gold might actually exist."

Here's what I had a while ago, before DF was released:

Making a Gold Piece (GP) of half-ounce weight worth 25 energy and $250 makes scavenged gold worth $8,000 per pound, in the mid-range according to Campaigns.

The 25 energy/$250 thing was based on assumptions about the Ancient cultures that minted the coins being able to do enchantments of any size at $10 per energy point (using Meditative Magic, as it happens). However, now that DF is actually out, I'd probably redo this based on that book's assumptions.

If going with the idea that 1 CP = 25 energy in Signature Gear enchantments (I might even allow meditative magic pools for clerics and NPC enchanters, but that's another topic), and 1 CP = $500 of Signature Gear or extra cash, that gives us a ratio of 1 energy per $20 as a 'modern' rate of exchange. If we make a 'gold piece' weigh one full ounce and be worth $500/25 energy/1 CP, then we again get a price of $8,000 for a pound of gold. Silver pieces can also be one ounce apiece and be worth $20/1 energy, with a price of $320 per pound of silver. Make copper pieces an ounce and worth $1 apiece, and you get a price for copper of $16 per pound, which I would mark up to copper being the metal most frequently mined by dwarves and/or most commonly produced by Earth to Stone cast twice. Not quite as low as you were going for, and somebody can still carry a small fortune on their back ($20,000 dollars, starting wealth for Very Rich, is only two and a half lbs of gold) or a fairly large one if they have pack animals or a cart of some kind, but it's not quite as bad as the first version in that respect. So, to recap, my suggestion: Gold, silver, and copper pieces, all an ounce apiece...

Metal 1oz 1lb
Gold $500 $8,000
Silver $20 $320
Copper $1 $16

Seems like a good mix to me. An interesting note - if you *do* allow character purchase of Signature Gear enchantments at 1 CP per 25 energy, that strongly suggests a market value of $20 per energy point of enchantment. This undercuts the market role of modern NPC enchanters for anything that can't be done Quick & Dirty, since an NPC enchanter needs to charge at least $33 per energy point (i.e., per mage-day) for Slow & Sure enchantments in order to be pulling in even Average income. I imagine that mages with the prerequisites to be enchanters will have other options that gain them a greater income. I would attribute this discrepancy, of course, to a glut of enchanted items pulled out of dungeons bringing down the price. If modern enchanters are to compete (and you may not necessarily want them to), they will need some means of getting more energy into an enchantment per mage per day. Two possible approaches come to mind:

1) Let a mage put energy equal to Magery into an enchantment per day of Slow & Sure enchantment. Since you need at least Magery 2 to do enchantment in the first place, this at least doubles the base speed and wage per mage-day.

2) For a more complicated option, let enchanters use the rules for Meditative Magic (accumulate 25 energy per 200 hours of 'study', 1 energy per 8-hour day) and treat Magery as Talent for 'learning' purposes. This results in less gain at lower Magery levels ($25 per day for Magery 2, $28 per day for Magery 3, $33 per day for Magery 4, $40 for Magery 5, all the way to $200 for Magery 9, matching Magery 10 in option 1).

Option 1 looks easiest to implement, if you want modern enchanters to be able to match the feats of bygone days for a living or better wage.

[Kromm]

The prices are simply consistent with the Basic Set. While I do appreciate the visuals of a huge hoard, I think that's Not Fun. My memories of old-time dungeon games with evil GMs all have that kind of thing leading to long, boring game sessions about engineering and transportation. I think it's more fun to scoop up the loot and carry on. I was very specifically looking at the Diablo II model of "you can carry massive wealth in coins without it slowing you down." The whole Smaug's hoard view isn't really a dungeon fantasy thing, but a serious fantasy thing.

Note also that 250 coins to the pound isn't all that nutty. Those are 1.8g coins. Plenty of pure precious metal coins have been in the 1-2g range. (Amusingly, 1.8g is the weight of the Canadian penny issued after January 1978!)

If you do want piles of coins, consider making 99% of them copper. It isn't as if copper isn't glinty and approximately the right color.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by Kromm

The prices are simply consistent with the Basic Set. While I do appreciate the visuals of a huge hoard, I think that's Not Fun. My memories of old-time dungeon games with evil GMs all have that kind of thing leading to long, boring game sessions about engineering and transportation. I think it's more fun to scoop up the loot and carry on. I was very specifically looking at the Diablo II model of "you can carry massive wealth in coins without it slowing you down." The whole Smaug's hoard view isn't really a dungeon fantasy thing, but a serious fantasy thing.

Note also that 250 coins to the pound isn't all that nutty. Those are 1.8g coins. Plenty of pure precious metal coins have been in the 1-2g range. (Amusingly, 1.8g is the weight of the Canadian penny issued after January 1978!)

If you do want piles of coins, consider making 99% of them copper. It isn't as if copper isn't glinty and approximately the right color.

Or Brass, that way you get shiny yellow metal coins.

[vitruvian]

If you go with the D&D standard of 50 gold coins to a pound, and assume the filler to be effectively worthless, that means the gold coins are only 20% gold (Which is still pretty good for a fantasy economy, IMO), and you can make 1250 coins from the same pound of gold.

Note also that 250 coins to the pound isn't all that nutty. Those are 1.8g coins. Plenty of pure precious metal coins have been in the 1-2g range. (Amusingly, 1.8g is the weight of the Canadian penny issued after January 1978!)

Actually, if you go with 50 coins to the pound as in D&D (which will certainly make calculations easier), that's a 9g coin, that's got some heft to it.

I think that Dungeon Fantasy should use the suggestion in the next paragraph that "the $ is a one-ounce silver coin, like a silver dollar. A one-ounce gold peice would then be worth $20. At that rate... a pound of gold would be worth $240. In such a world... caravans loaded with gold might actually exist."

I'll note for the first time that 16 ounces times $20 is $320, not $240.

Anyway, I might experiment with the numbers if I were you, to find what you consider the 'sweet spot'.

For example, for a real D&D level of simplication at 50 gold coins to the pound, with each coin being worth an even $100, you get a historically low but not absolutely ridiculous value for gold of $5,000 per pound. Silver could then be worth exactly 1/10 as much, at $10 per coin and $500 per pound, and copper could be 1/10 that for $1 per coin and $50 per pound. You're still able to carry off your Very Wealthy starting wealth from the dungeon with a mere 4 lbs added to your encumbrance, but it's clear that these precious metals are easier to come by than in real-world history.

About the lowest I would probably go would be (with the same 50 coins per lb) $20 gold pieces ($1,000 per lb), $1 silver pieces ($50 per lb), and $0.05 coppers ($2.50 per lb). Gold pieces could be quartered for $5 slices, and silver pieces could be quartered for intermediate small change at the tavern, of course. This would result in a curiously modern (US) type of currency, where you would effectively have twenties, fives, ones, quarters, and nickels. If going with this option, I might use it to give small villages and towns a bit of an Old West and/or Noir feel, similar to a recent fantasy novel, _The Sword-Edged Blonde_.

[blacksmith]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

Actually, if you go with 50 coins to the pound as in D&D (which will certainly make calculations easier), that's a 9g coin, that's got some heft to it.



I'll note for the first time that 16 ounces times $20 is $320, not $240.

Anyway, I might experiment with the numbers if I were you, to find what you consider the 'sweet spot'.

For example, for a real D&D level of simplication at 50 gold coins to the pound, with each coin being worth an even $100, you get a historically low but not absolutely ridiculous value for gold of $5,000 per pound. Silver could then be worth exactly 1/10 as much, at $10 per coin and $500 per pound, and copper could be 1/10 that for $1 per coin and $50 per pound. You're still able to carry off your Very Wealthy starting wealth from the dungeon with a mere 4 lbs added to your encumbrance, but it's clear that these precious metals are easier to come by than in real-world history.

About the lowest I would probably go would be (with the same 50 coins per lb) $20 gold pieces ($1,000 per lb), $1 silver pieces ($50 per lb), and $0.05 coppers ($2.50 per lb). Gold pieces could be quartered for $5 slices, and silver pieces could be quartered for intermediate small change at the tavern, of course. This would result in a curiously modern (US) type of currency, where you would effectively have twenties, fives, ones, quarters, and nickels. If going with this option, I might use it to give small villages and towns a bit of an Old West and/or Noir feel, similar to a recent fantasy novel, _The Sword-Edged Blonde_.

Well coins should be worth somewhat more than bullion

[vitruvian]

Well coins should be worth somewhat more than bullion

Not necessarily - they can be worth more or less, depending on the existing conditions.

Coins start off just being a way of distributing the bullion under the authority of the mint.

The nominated value of coinage can be higher than their weight melted down into bullion, if the coinage has been debased to any great degree (Gresham's Law) as frequently happened.

In more modern times, the value of a coin can be unrelated to its 'real' value as precious metal, just as paper money has value solely due to being backed by a government or treasury. That idea takes a while to kick in, though, usually after the advent of paper money based on gold certificates and such.

And then you get weird cases like the US penny, which is currently worth more melted down into copper as a commodity than it is worth as a coin...