Question on Disarm and Ready Weapons

[mook]

In a separate thread I'm discussing some combat examples I'm working on, and I've hit a snag.

In the third Close Combat example, an unarmed combatant is fighting against an opponent with a broadsword; however, the broadsword is not yet Ready, it's still sheathed.

Does the unarmed fighter have to wait until his opponent's weapon begins a turn as Ready, or can he attempt to disarm immediately following the turn when his opponent declares he is readying (trying to knock the weapon away *as* it is readied, instead of *after*)? I couldn't decide after reading the Disarm rules on B401.

Since a weapon isn't actually Ready until the turn following the choosing of the Ready maneuver (i.e., you can't declare Ready as your maneuver and then immediately Parry if attacked; you have to wait until your next turn), it seems that maybe the weapon can't be disarmed during that time.

On the other hand, this would mean that you could never disarm a weapon until it had at least one chance to attack you, and though implied, the rules don't explicitly say (that I could find) that you can only strike a weapon if it is Ready.

Hope I explained that clearly enough, it's late.

Thanks,

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by mook

Since a weapon isn't actually Ready until the turn following the choosing of the Ready maneuver (i.e., you can't declare Ready as your maneuver and then immediately Parry if attacked; you have to wait until your next turn),

This is incorrect. Nothing in GURPS Basic Set says that your weapon is not fully ready until the beginning of the next turn. It just says "it takes one turn" to ready (check "When is a Weapon Ready" on p. B383, "Readying Weapons And Other Gear on p. 382). It doesn't give an exception anywhere to the allowable defenses that a weapon you Ready can't be used to parry until the following turn, either. It takes a full action (i.e. a Ready maneuver) to take out a weapon, but it can be used to parry immediately. Fast-Draw contrasts with this by allowing you to ready your weapon so quickly it doesn't take a Maneuver, so you can use it immediately, and you don't use a turn Readying.

[Verjigorm]

Add this:

IF sheathed sword has a lower basic speed than Graby Gabe, the Gabe can grab hold of Sheathed Sword's hand(say, right?). Sheathed Sword then needs a DX roll at a -4 penalty to ready his weapon AT ALL.

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

[...]It takes a full action (i.e. a Ready maneuver) to take out a weapon, but it can be used to parry immediately.[...]

I am afraid, but I have to disagree.

Originally Posted by B376 Parrying

You cannot parry unless your weapon is ready[...]

Originally Posted by B383 When Is a Weapon Ready?

A weapon is "ready" if it is in your hand and ready to attack. It takes one turn to ready a weapon from a scabberd[...]

But since your weapon is only ready to attack in the turn after your Ready-maneuver so is your weapon to Parry.

[The Benj]

You should be afraid, because you've misunderstood.

Once you've finished the maneuver, your sword is Ready. Then the next person takes their turn.

[LordHelmet]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Once you've finished the maneuver, your sword is Ready.

Exactly, but since you are attacked while readying your weapon you haven't finished your turn/maneuver yet.
Remember, your turn ends when you chose your next maneuver, not when the next person takes his turn (see 3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end? and 3.4.1.10 Could I have a clear description of what a turn is in GURPS?)

[LordHelmet]

Concerning the question of the OP:

I couldn't find anything in B400f "Striking At Weapons" and "Knocking a Weapon Away" that speaks against trying to disarm your foe while he is readying his weapon.

Using the Grabbing and Grappling rules (B370) it even seems reasonable to allow to grap for your foes weapon while it is still sheathed and your foe is not trying to ready it.

[mook]

Originally Posted by Verjigorm

Add this:
IF sheathed sword has a lower basic speed than Graby Gabe, the Gabe can grab hold of Sheathed Sword's hand(say, right?). Sheathed Sword then needs a DX roll at a -4 penalty to ready his weapon AT ALL.

Perfectly fine workaround Verjigorm - unfortunately, the examples are meant to illustrate the Basic set rules-as-written, no more no less, so adding in a house rule isn't really an option for me. Thanks though. : )

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

This is incorrect. Nothing in GURPS Basic Set says that your weapon is not fully ready until the beginning of the next turn. It just says "it takes one turn" to ready (check "When is a Weapon Ready" on p. B383, "Readying Weapons And Other Gear on p. 382). It doesn't give an exception anywhere to the allowable defenses that a weapon you Ready can't be used to parry until the following turn, either. It takes a full action (i.e. a Ready maneuver) to take out a weapon, but it can be used to parry immediately. Fast-Draw contrasts with this by allowing you to ready your weapon so quickly it doesn't take a Maneuver, so you can use it immediately, and you don't use a turn Readying.

Hmm - see, "it takes one turn" to me means, you declare your maneuver, it takes one turn, then at the start of your next turn it's ready - I would think if a weapon could be used to Parry before it could be used to Attack, that would be explicitly stated somewhere?

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

B376 Parrying
You cannot parry unless your weapon is ready[...]

B383 When Is a Weapon Ready?
A weapon is "ready" if it is in your hand and ready to attack. It takes one turn to ready a weapon from a scabberd[...]

But since your weapon is only ready to attack in the turn after your Ready-maneuver so is your weapon to Parry.

This was my understanding too - you cannot Parry unless your weapon is Ready, but your weapon is only Ready "if it is in your hand and ready to attack".

Originally Posted by The Benj

You should be afraid, because you've misunderstood.
Once you've finished the maneuver, your sword is Ready. Then the next person takes their turn.

I see - so you're saying that *immediately* after declaring Ready as your maneuver, your weapon is technically Ready - the only reason you can't Attack with it is because your next opportunity to declare a maneuver doesn't come until the start of your next turn?

If that's the case then I can see where one could Parry with a weapon on the same turn that they declare they are readying it (and also, this would allow someone to attempt a disarm in response to a Ready maneuver), but it seems pretty 50/50 to me from the text - is there any 'official'/semi-official/quasi-official post on this?

[The Benj]

Originally Posted by LordHelmet

Exactly, but since you are attacked while readying your weapon you haven't finished your turn/maneuver yet.
Remember, your turn ends when you chose your next maneuver, not when the next person takes his turn (see 3.4.1.3 In combat, when does your turn end? and 3.4.1.10 Could I have a clear description of what a turn is in GURPS?)

Your weapon is Ready. Just like if you take an Attack, your Attack doesn't take until the start of your next turn to resolve, your Readying a weapon doesn't either.
The only case in which I can see this NOT being the case is if someone was holding a Wait to attack you if you did "something aggressive", like, say Readying a weapon. Then their Wait would go off and they'd attack you before you've actually drawn your sword.
Otherwise, you take your Ready maneuver, your sword is now drawn and it's on to someone else's action.

[mook]

Originally Posted by The Benj

Your weapon is Ready. Just like if you take an Attack, your Attack doesn't take until the start of your next turn to resolve, your Readying a weapon doesn't either.

Aaaah, that's an excellent point, your Attack doesn't take the entire second from turn-to-turn to resolve, you just declare it, do it, then wait until your next turn comes around again.

I'm shifting from 50/50 to 25/75, I think I will assume this is the correct interpretation until/unless something even more definitive comes along.

Thank you all, on both sides, for taking the time to discuss this - I'm just trying to avoid a lot of rewriting by making sure everything is as correct as I can make it before writing out the examples (in fact, it's likely I'll have even more questions in the days and weeks to come).