Genericness of Magic in GURPS

[Jabani]

A lot of people (myself included) have made the claim that the GURPS magic system is not particularly universal, citing its rigid structure or whatever. And while I still think this is somewhat true, I noticed today that the spells themselves can be woven to fit each individual campaign better (which is what GURPS is supposed to do after all).

Take, for instance, the Sense Life spell: "Tells the caster if there is any life in the subject area, and gives a general impression (on a good roll) of what kind." Now at first that struck me as rather vague. But then I imagined how Kromm would use it, with his colorful improvisational GMing style, and I realized how adaptable that spell could be for the clever GM. It says that on a good roll, it gives a general impression of what kind of life, but it doesn't delimit the info the GM can convey. In a strongly symbolic Good vs. Evil campaign, it might tell the user if the life is good or bad. In other types of games, it could tell the user if its magical, demonic, hostile, demi-human, or whatever. And it could get even more specific than that, if it served the GM's purposes. Which makes it (and other spells like it, which I'm forgetting right now) very useful to the toolkit GM, as does the seemingly too-ambiguous "on a good roll." That very vagueness is useful, and makes GURPS magic more generic.

[kmunoz]

I feel the opposite: GURPS magic is too generic for my uses. It makes certain assumptions about the nature of a spellcasting culture that are too restrictive for what I need. For example, a "battle mage" using GURPS magic doesn't have many options for enhancing others' weapons. What's worse, there is next to no true minor enchantment system in GURPS magic: there's major enchantment (lasts forever, takes a long, long time to cast) and temporary enchantment (lasts X uses, takes a long time to cast), but no minor enchantment (lasts X minutes, takes a few seconds to cast). The only spell I can think of off hand is Flaming Weapon.

[benz72]

SHouldn't it be possible to create the spells you want using flaming weapon as a cost / structure guideline?
Perhaps a temporary DR boost to shields or some such would be a good start?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by benz72

SHouldn't it be possible to create the spells you want using flaming weapon as a cost / structure guideline?
Perhaps a temporary DR boost to shields or some such would be a good start?

*nods* You could do that, and I'm hopeful [not privy to the exact content] that Thaumatology will have more guidelines on spell invention.

Note also that magic has a few other elemental variations on Flaming Weapon.

[Lupo]

Originally Posted by kmunoz

I feel the opposite: GURPS magic is too generic for my uses. It makes certain assumptions about the nature of a spellcasting culture that are too restrictive for what I need. For example, a "battle mage" using GURPS magic doesn't have many options for enhancing others' weapons. What's worse, there is next to no true minor enchantment system in GURPS magic: there's major enchantment (lasts forever, takes a long, long time to cast) and temporary enchantment (lasts X uses, takes a long time to cast), but no minor enchantment (lasts X minutes, takes a few seconds to cast). The only spell I can think of off hand is Flaming Weapon.

It's true that standard GURPS Magic emphasize direct action over "party enhancement". But Flaming Weapon is not the only option... by far!
Think of other elemental spells sucha s Flame / Icy / Lighting Weapon / Missiles / Armor, half the Body Controll College (Grace, Reflexes, Vigor, Might, Resist Pain, and all the Boost Attribute), Protection and Warning spells such as Armor and Shield, and Movement spells such as Freedom, Lighten Burden, Haste and Great Haste.

If you want to emphasize spells that enhance allies in your campaigns, you can simply rearrange the spell list (which is not a "deviation" from standard GURPS but a campaign option described in GURPS Magic itself).

Many people don't like GURPS Magic (probably because magic is a very subjective and totally fictional thing and everybody has his own ideas about how it should work), but in my opinion the rules as written provide a nice background for most "typical fantasy" games, and a very easy way to represent different "magic schools", religious cults and so on, simply creating a "spell list" for each.

If you really want more variety, you could easily rule that any Enchantment spell can be used "temporarily", at 1/100 cost or something, but its effects last only 10 minutes. I don't think it's necessary, and will require you to 'change the rules', but might be what you're looking for...

In my opinion, if you want to build your own "magic system" or "supernatural abilities system" you should not look in GURPS Magic but in GURPS Powers.

On the other hand, if your preferred magic system is somewhat similar to "standard fantasy rpg magic", whatever that means, GURPS Magic will be enough (and simpler).

[tylrlsaa]

Originally Posted by kmunoz

I feel the opposite: GURPS magic is too generic for my uses. It makes certain assumptions about the nature of a spellcasting culture that are too restrictive for what I need. For example, a "battle mage" using GURPS magic doesn't have many options for enhancing others' weapons. What's worse, there is next to no true minor enchantment system in GURPS magic: there's major enchantment (lasts forever, takes a long, long time to cast) and temporary enchantment (lasts X uses, takes a long time to cast), but no minor enchantment (lasts X minutes, takes a few seconds to cast). The only spell I can think of off hand is Flaming Weapon.

With respect, sir. It IS the GENERIC universal role-play system. If you feel it is too generic, customize. Write up house rules that are comfortable to you and your players and go have a good time. That's the whole point.

[LemmingLord]

GURPS Magic spells seem very out of place. I know the comment has been made before, but generic-izing the psionics system was the right thing to do, and so would be doing so with magic.

That said, GURPS Magic spells are a fine "house rule" to add to the generic system. :)

But yes - GURPS Magic is quite non-generic. It feels like it should be a part of a world book. You can't model Forgotten Realms D&D style magic or MAGE the ascension brand magic off it. Its really its own creature.

[Lonewulf]

For what it's worth, I'm making my own magic system for my Dragon Age RPG (title a work in progress).

So far, it works a bit more like Mage than anything. I'm trying to set it up so that most users can get practical use out of it, but only the most powerful can get anything REALLY significant out of it. I.E., you can't really sling fireballs around until Magery 1 or so. To do so beforehand is dangerous, and draining.

It's meant for a Normal mana world (with certain high mana zones), and magic is divided into three parts.

Regardless, I recommend that anyone that's even the slightest bit interested look here: http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/Dragon_Age

I'm still brainstorming and just using the wiki for scribing it down.

A lot of the figures are just "ballpark figures". Either way, if your complaint is that magic is too *general* and not specific enough, then you would dislike my system.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

GURPS Magic spells seem very out of place. I know the comment has been made before, but generic-izing the psionics system was the right thing to do, and so would be doing so with magic. .

Magic has been genericised of course. The magery system is merely an alternative to the generic approach.

[kmunoz]

Originally Posted by Lupo

It's true that standard GURPS Magic emphasize direct action over "party enhancement". But Flaming Weapon is not the only option... by far!
Think of other elemental spells sucha s Flame / Icy / Lighting Weapon / Missiles / Armor, half the Body Controll College (Grace, Reflexes, Vigor, Might, Resist Pain, and all the Boost Attribute), Protection and Warning spells such as Armor and Shield, and Movement spells such as Freedom, Lighten Burden, Haste and Great Haste.

I will agree that all of these are great party enhancement spells, and I did forget about the other two weapon enhancements. What I would also like to see is something like Sharpen Weapon (add/increase cutting damage) or Spike Weapon (add/increase impaling damage). I've been creating these spells using Flaming Weapon as a template.

Originally Posted by Lupo

If you really want more variety, you could easily rule that any Enchantment spell can be used "temporarily", at 1/100 cost or something, but its effects last only 10 minutes. I don't think it's necessary, and will require you to 'change the rules', but might be what you're looking for...

That is a good idea. I've been playing around with something like it.

Originally Posted by Lupo

In my opinion, if you want to build your own "magic system" or "supernatural abilities system" you should not look in GURPS Magic but in GURPS Powers.

I agree, with a caveat (and a caveat on the caveat). Powers-based magic is significantly more costly CP-wise than Magic-based magic, at least as far as I've been able to construct it. At the same time, however, Magic-based magic is extremely powerful even at the low end of the CP scale, and replacing it with Powers-based magic is useful when trying to nerf magic on purpose.