DF:A Without Divine Magic

[LoneWolf23k]

Something I've been thinking about concerning Dungeon Fantasy 1: Adventurers, was how to use the Clerics and Druids (and the Holy Warrior), but switching Power Investiture with Magery. In short, instead of true divine champions, they'd be "White Mages" (for clerics) and "Green Mages" (for druids).

This would be to fit Clerics and Druids into settings like Banestorm, where "Divine Magic" is limited to vague Mystic gifts, and most religious spellcasters are priests (or imams) with Magery and knowledge of spell magic.

Another alternative I was considering is making a new variation on limited Magery, working very much like One-College Magery, but with a selection of spells based on a patron deity's portfolio.

Any opinions?

[ravenfish]

Sounds good to me. The one problem I see with your Divine College suggestion is prerequisites- specifically, the fact that you will have to either adjust them to keep them in college, waive them entirely, or force the mage to take spells he can't cast. Shouldn't be too much work, though.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

Another alternative I was considering is making a new variation on limited Magery, working very much like One-College Magery, but with a selection of spells based on a patron deity's portfolio.

As in, still needing all the usual spell prereqs and everything? I don't see any problem with that.

Once Thaumatology is finally released into the wild there are good guidelines in there for rolling your own colleges and pricing One College Magery for them fairly based on the number of spells available in the college. (or two college Magery or whatever).

[Kromm]

Or you could have divine magic on Yrth. I ran two campaigns that used Yrth: one that was a pure Yrth game, from 1986 to 1990, and one that started life on Yrth and stayed there from 1990 until early 1993. Both had divine magic. About the only thing you need to make it work is to decide on the gods. In my case, I made the Christian, Jewish, and Muslim deity the same entity, and reduced the Yrthly religions to somewhat hostile philosophical sects. Other deities worshipped by other cultures and races were simply different, and coexisted with each other and the monotheists' deity. Mortal man could easily enough be wrong about "There is only one god!" and/or "Only these gods are real!" -- that's just more philosophy. I found that spellcasting clerics didn't really change the flavor of the setting appreciably but did make it far more interesting and acceptable to former D&D players.

[LoneWolf23k]

Interesting approach, Kromm. It reminds me of the methodology used in GURPS Myth, where Power Investiture represents a religious or philosophical approach to Magery.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by LoneWolf23k

Interesting approach, Kromm. It reminds me of the methodology used in GURPS Myth, where Power Investiture represents a religious or philosophical approach to Magery.

I'm very interested in that idea, but I don't have GURPS Myth.

By chance, will be that Power Investiture interpretation discussed in Thaumatology?

[Kromm]

It won't be discussed much because it's fairly trivial, really. While fans of setting canon and some setting creators are all gung-ho about which gods are unique and which are aspects differentiated by mortal thinkers, a purely objective look at the ineffable will invariably conclude that it's all conjecture anyway and what matters is what you see manifested, not what might exist on a metaphysical plane you can't plumb. It isn't like miracle-working priests with identical powers would be able to stand in the way of a religious war between warlords more interested in each jot and squiggle of a holy writing than in proof they lack the perceptions to understand anyway.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by Kromm

It won't be discussed much because it's fairly trivial, really.

I understand this point (philosophical difference between Power Investiture and Magery) isn't relevant to the rules or the crunchy aspect of the forthcoming book, but anyway it can be an interesting fluff adition for GMs considering different viewpoints about Magic, its source(s) and scope (maybe non phenomenologic, metaphysical scope?) in a campaign-setting. You know, these gung-ho guys ;-)

Originally Posted by Kromm

a purely objective look at the ineffable will invariably conclude that it's all conjecture anyway and what matters is what you see manifested, not what might exist on a metaphysical plane you can't plumb.

Indeed. But, in a given campaign-setting with supernatural abilities, PCs and other characters could indeed have the needed supernatural capabilities to plumb and probing such metaphysical plane ("God's plane" for monotheistic religious cultures) not for making abstruse conjectures but for knowing.

That could be very useful in campaigns featuring cosmic mysteries and enigmas, needing some mystic or initiatic ability for solving them.

Because knowing the metaphysical plane is the "specialty" of some mystics and initiates, thanks to their "organ of mystic, universal and metaphysical knowledge": the Holy Ghost/The Spirit of God in man (Cristianism) or the planonic Nous, the beyond-the brain-(non thinking or reasoning but intuitive)-Intellect.

In other words, the Nous received as (or awakened by) Power Investiture through initiatic rituals, being the only thing in man able to provide "a purely objective look at the ineffable" (the ancient meaning of gnosis) resulting in enlightenment or sanctity (i.e., The Buddha; BTW the western Nous is equivalent to the eastern hinduist and buddhist Bodhi).

Some degree of "historical reality checking" about (mostly ancient) beliefs and mysteric-religious assumptions can be applied in these subjects too (not only to martial arts, technology, psysics, and weapon models), so we have a culturally familiar example between many others extracted from 1 Corinthians 2: 10, 11, 12, 13:

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (10)
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? ... (11)
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world [man's natural reasoning capability], but the spirit which is of God [Nous, Intellect]; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (12) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (13)"

Traditionally the platonic Nous, Pneuma, Spirit of God or Intellect could be working "in the man" but only after the ritual reception of such gift or "power".

I see this related to Power Investiture because traditionally, the capability of knowing the depths of God by the human being was regarded as a supernatural gift, received from "God himself" or from some enlightened Guru, Prophet or Saint through mysteric initiation ("Now we have received. . .the spirit wich is of God"). BTW, the posession of that supernatural gift is what diferentiates mystics from rationalistic philosophers relying only in their own natural thinking. That supernatural mystic gift, a sort of biblical "Charisma", should be more related with Power Investiture than with Clerical Investment (this latter mostly a social thing).

Again,

Originally Posted by Kromm

It won't be discussed much because it's fairly trivial, really.

Well, I wouldn't interested in a long discussion about this. I woud be happy only with a brief and sumary treatment, about a paragraph. A mentioning of the idea, at least.

My intention here is to show how I think this can to add depth to some campaigns.

Cheers

EDIT: The partial definition of Power Investiture as "a measure of your bond with your deity" (Characters, p. 77) matches literally and explicitly with the traditional and mysteric meaning of Nous - Intellect.

On the other hand, Power Investiture is an empowerment allowing one to cast "clerical" spells.

Well, there still are room for both faces of Power Investiture (gnostic and phenomenologic, inner and outward): Power Investiture theoretically should allow metaphysical, non-phenomenologic nor empiric mystic knowledge, and allows too perform some phenomenological miracles or clerical spells.

EDIT2: Some Fantasy Wizards, being typically in synth with supernatural knowledge, makes me to think about Magery as having a role here, too, along with Power Investiture, Blessed and Holy Might advantages. (http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.p...2&postcount=58)