So...GURPS D&D?

[nmoody]

I'm not sold on the GURPS Dungeons products. I mean, I keep hearing how it pushes the rules to show what can be done, but is it really pushing the rules to turn GURPS into D&D?

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but this is one product (or series of products) that doesn't interest me.

But...convince me. Is there anything useful to running a Banestorm game in these pdfs?

[Mailanka]

The "brilliance" of them isn't turning them into D&D. It's making a game out of them, and focusing GURPS onto one thing.

Let me offer another example: Imagine GURPS Tournament Fighter. It slims down all the martial arts to what works in combat, and slims down powers to reflect Chi techniques. You get cinematic ninjas, cinematic monks, cinematic strong-man soldiers with no-nonsense styles, and cinematic dancers with over-the-top beautiful styles (what have you). The GURPS engine is honed to focus on one style of play, a style it could already do, but this takes alot of the unnecessary work out of it. Thus you can grab the book, pick a template, a style, and get to fighting in a relatively balanced and interesting manner.

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy works the same way. It hones the engine to focus on the resource management, hack-n-slash strategies of dungeon crawling games, whether those are Warhammer Quest, D&D, Hackmaster, Diablo or Dugneon Seige. It doesn't change anything: There are no levels, no classes, no new rules. Instead, it shows you how the GURPS engine can already do this sort of game, and provides what amounts to a cheatsheet to do it even faster.

Even if you have no intention of running a dungeoneering hack-n-slash game (Nothing wrong with that), the ideas, templates, monsters and advice can prove useful for any game that even has leanings in that direction. It's a terribly handy supplement, and extremely cheap besides.

[RafaelLVX]

Good point.

[Lonewulf]

I like it just for the interesting of ideas for "How-can-I-do-this"? I also like the system where spells are based more on level than on prereqs.

I'd also note that there is absolutely no "pushing" here. No more than making Banestorm was "pushing" GURPS into fantasy...

[Extrarius]

Originally Posted by Mailanka

[...]no new rules.[...]

Not quite true - the item modification rules in DF:A do add quite a lot, and though they are obviously most appropriate to dungeon fantasy, they easily could be used for any game where similar types of weapons are used.

In a lot of ways, I think DF is like some of the historical supplements: They break out which things are appropriate in that setting, give templates, maybe add a few new advantages, skills, and so on, and mainly just take the huge amount of stuff available and list only the parts that apply to that one setting. DF covers a hugely greater number of settings since it's a genre book, but it still does basically the same thing - it chops down more than it adds to make it easier to handle that one specific genre.

However, it also includes tons of advice and other information that might be helpful in any campaign, whether used directly or as inspiration.

Finally, considering that the templates are 250 pts, you're not exactly starting out at anything equivalent to a D&D "level 1".

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by nmoody

But...convince me. Is there anything useful to running a Banestorm game in these pdfs?

The above posters are right.

Personally, my main interest is running serious fantasy campaigns (4e Fantasy is my central GURPS book, for saying it in some way), and myself am a Dungeon Fantasy enthusiast because... it is strongly useful in the type of game I want to run.

Furthermore, GURPS DF is all what is great in Dungeons & Dragons but... without its strong non-senses and bad parts!

It is more like showing and playing some GURPS inherent strenghts, until now almost hidden in a potential way during years, for a lot of people...

And the forthcoming Thaumatology is going to enhance all this, I guess...

Definitely, I think this is useful to Banestorm campaigns, and even I think this DF line could be regarded as companion or extension to 4e Fantasy (by William H. Stoddard).

Cheers

[HardMaple72]

Personally I will continue to use D&D 3.5e for medieval fantasy games (I'm not even interested in 4.0 since 3.5 does what I want it to do). So I can't help you there.

But this system fits my needs for post-apocalypse settings, and its better than d20 Modern IMHO in all of its time-periods (World War, Future, Colonial, Elizabethan (not sure if that's a word) ).

So my suggestion is if you want to remain in Medieval Fantasy, I won't recommend a change to GURPS. But if you want to stretch out into a different genre this is an excellent choice. And if you will be moving between games with different genres including MF, this is also the best choice.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by nmoody

I'm not sold on the GURPS Dungeons products. I mean, I keep hearing how it pushes the rules to show what can be done, but is it really pushing the rules to turn GURPS into D&D?

Maybe I'm thinking about it wrong, but this is one product (or series of products) that doesn't interest me.

But...convince me. Is there anything useful to running a Banestorm game in these pdfs?

Okay, to begin with, I don't think that it's trying to get GURPS to Do D&D...

GURPS is a generic set of rules (as I'm sure you're well aware), that has been successfully applied to various setting and campaign types. We've got generic Science Fiction toolbooks, generic Fantasy toolbooks that tell you how to adapt your favorite gameworld to this specific set of rules. They've got specific gameworlds and situations covered, from Traveller and Transhuman Space.

Now, by contrast, D&D is a specific set of rules that were originally designed to do Dungeon fantasy. Sure, people use D&D for all sorts of other campaign types, but the original intent of D&D was to design a system that allows you to run adventures where a group of party members head down into a dungeon/cavern/series of tunnels, whatever, fight monsters, and take their stuff.

The fact of the matter is that whether a matter of history, or mass appeal, a *lot* of players play Dungeon Fantasy type games. I play in a D&D 3.5 campaign that is a sort of 'Pretzel and Root Beer' chance to let off steam, blow things up and take their stuff campaign. We use D&D 3.5 because it's well adapted to the kind of adventure that we're playing in.

It isn't my favorite ruleset, but it support what we're doing.

I see GURPS as my favorite ruleset (that I have lots of books detailing Magic, Weapons, Fantasy character types, and settings, such as Banestorm) adapted to play this particular genre of fantasy type game.

So, it's not that GURPS is doing D&D. It's more along the lines that finally, Dungeon Fantasy players (and again, there are a *LOT* of those) have the option to play in the GURPS rules.

Nobody is pushing you to play GURPS rules with your Dungeon Fantasy. It's an option. It's there if you want it.

As I play (occasional) games of Dungeon Fantasy with friends. And as we generally like the GURPS rulesets, this is a great addition to our arsenal of rulesets that cover a different type of campaign.

Frankly, I'm hoping that GURPS publishes these supplements in hardcover and puts them right out there at the FLGS. Not to do D&D, but to give players more options to go with their Dungeon Fantasy. More options is a good thing.

Cheers,

-P.

[Pmandrekar]

Originally Posted by HardMaple72

So my suggestion is if you want to remain in Medieval Fantasy, I won't recommend a change to GURPS. But if you want to stretch out into a different genre this is an excellent choice. And if you will be moving between games with different genres including MF, this is also the best choice.

HardMaple72 is making my point for me, and I thank you!

What you want to do with these rules is up to you. I personally would be interested in playing in some of the D&D based gameworlds, but with the GURPS rulesets, because the type of the campaigns that I love to play have a lot of social interaction, as well as a lot of things in them that D&D wasn't necessarily built to handle. At the same time, a lot of people are going to stick to D&D 3.5, or whatever system fits the campaign that they're playing, and that's an equally legitimate choice...

Cheers,

-P.

[demonsbane]

Originally Posted by HardMaple72

So my suggestion is if you want to remain in Medieval Fantasy, I won't recommend a change to GURPS.

However, I do! ;-D

With some sourcebooks, GURPS definitely can run more appealing, detailed and depth Fantasy campaigns.

DF 2: Dungeons is in a way more useful than the D&D's Dungeon Master Guides.

Even GURPS melee combat (basic for Heroic Fantasy settings) is uncomparable, and even more if you are using some Martial Arts combat options.

Of course, all this IMO! And anyway, I acknowledge diversity is a good thing.

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

Nobody is pushing you to play GURPS rules with your Dungeon Fantasy. It's an option. It's there if you want it.

Of course nothing obligues any GURPS player to use DF material.

Originally Posted by Pmandrekar

Frankly, I'm hoping that GURPS publishes these supplements in hardcover and puts them right out there at the FLGS. Not to do D&D, but to give players more options to go with their Dungeon Fantasy. More options is a good thing.

Me too! Perhaps as a single volume after the third PDF Sean is working on, or maybe after the fourth (a bestiary?).

Cheers