GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Races - 25 point templates

[SCAR]

Good Job pnewman, very nice set of templates.

You set the ground rule for 25 point templates, therefore your choice to have a 25 point Human template, and to choose Night Vision for Dwarves and Darkvision for Goblins etc to balance things is fine.
Different people will have different opinions on what are the right characteristics for a particular race, and how 2 different races should be compared to each other.

I wouldn't have made the same choices on some of the templates, but they all seem like appropriate interpretations of what each race should be like, and should feel right in a DF game.

As a side note, the Cleric, Druid, Martial Artist and Scout Templates in DF each only have 20 points to choose Advantages from !

On to my comments (and my own opinions):

I wouldn't have a Human Template for similar reasons as already mentioned, especially since part of the Human Template is to choose Skills (and why not Advantages) from the Professional Template - why not just make the Racial Templates another available Advantage to choose from, no Racial Template = Human, who spend those points on the standard Professional Template list of Advantages and Skills, etc

This then leads to not needing each Racial Template to be exactly the same cost. I probably wouldn't want Racial Templates to be too expensive, otherwise you'd be restricting Racial Templates based on the available 'Free Points' within each Professional Template. e.g. a 40 point Race could only be a Knight or Swashbuckler, and a Cleric could only be a Race with a point cost of 20 or less !

It looks like you've used Banestorm as reference material (Social Regard/Good Neighbour in the Halfling Template !), which is what I would do, along with the 3e Fantasy Folk, along with Eric B. Smith's conversions of those to 4e!

For the Elf Template, BS gives them +1 DX and +1 IQ, where as FF(4e) gives them +1 IQ and Perfect Balance. - I'd probably opt for +1 IQ instead of +1 DX.

+1 IQ for Elves would allow you to use the BS Half-Elf Template at 27 points, 26 with reduced cost for Extended Lifespan, with a Quirk of some kind to make the cost 25!

As for the Dark Vision/Night Vision question -

I'm going with the upcoming 4th Ed Dungeons and Dragons decision to say that Dwarves are only a semi-underground race.

I don't agree with this interpretation of Dwarves at all. Dwarves (to my mind) live primarily underground, with no natural light source, Dark Vision suits them much better.
The cost is a bit too much for the Dwarven template, and both Banestorm and FF(4e) use NightVision for Dwarves anyway!

'Attacks at Night' races immediately implies 'Night Vision' to me - there is usually some light at night!

I have been thinking about Fantasy Racial Templates for another project, and with regards Dungeon Fantasy when the subject came up in various threads in the last couple ok weeks, but I hadn't got around to writing anything down - you've given me a great starting point to get on with own templates!

[pnewman]

Originally Posted by OldSam

I wouldn't do it this way:

2) Racial Skills? I don't think there is good explanation for this, you could rather think of regional or society-specific skills if you want this kind of things...

Some current official Gurps templates already include racially learned skills. In Dungeon Fantasy stereotypes Humans tend to be more diverse and more skilled than other races, therefore I included skills in the Human Template but left the selection of what skills they were undetermined. Many genres of fiction include the notion that humans are able to compete with other races who are individually superior because humans have determination and pluckiness. I chose to model this in GURPS tems with Luck, thereby reflecting the human ability to succeed in a crisis with the GURPS ability to use Luck to reroll failed rolls. I don't think the fact that this makes all the other races 'Unlucky' compared to humans is either a big deal or matters in Dungeon Fantasy [1], if I were running GURPS Professional Gamblers of Multiple Races, I'd do it differently.

Originally Posted by OldSam

Your template looks nice so far but in my opinion you should also think about a disadvantage-limit or maybe even better a static negative point-cost for disads for the racial templates if you want them to be balanced...

You're quite right that since the different races have different ammounts of racial disadvantages they may not be perfectly balanced. I just don't think that it matters for Dungeon Fantasy, I wouldn't do it this way in some other genres. Most of the templates have no more than 50 points in advantages, and no more than 25 points in disadvantages (not counting reduced characteristics as disadvantages if they're 'cancelled out' by increases to other characteristics). The human template deliberately has no disadvantages because I don't think that there are any sterotypical disadvantages that all humans have, either in reality or in Dungeon Fantasy.

The fact that these templates are all going to be 25 points does mean that some cool Fantasy races can't be included, at least not without throwing on crippling levels of disadvantages. Fortunately many of these races don't have a strong tradition as player characters in Dungeon Fantasy, because they don't fit in the dungeon (Dragons (unless very young), Centaurs, Giants), don't do well on land (Devilfish, Dolphin, Merfolk, Shark Men), are too powerful or unbalanced for the genre (Djinn Ascended Ones, Vampires, Faerie, Sphinxes, Trolls) or are even too weak (Kobalds). Some of these races might be point balanced if they took just a racial template, and skipped the class template, but I'm not going to do it that way in my upcoming Dungeon Fantasy campaign because I think that archetypes are a big part of Dungeon Fantasy.

[1] There are some genres other than Dungeon Fantasy where I don't think that it matters either. If I was running a GURPS Science Fantasy game like Star Trek or Star Wars, I'd probably use a similar (Luck and skills) template for humans to balance alien racial templates, but that is a topic for another thread.

[jbalsle]

Originally Posted by OldSam

I wouldn't do it this way:

1) If we imagine all humans in your world would have luck - what would this be? With a view only on humans competing against each other no one would have luck because they 'neutralize' each other on the other hand all other races would probably be social underdogs if they are all "unlucky" in comparison to the human race...

2) Racial Skills? I don't think there is good explanation for this, you could rather think of regional or society-specific skills if you want this kind of things...

Honestly, I'd say let the human template remain at 0, and let the humans spend their extra 25 points on whatever they wish. One of the hallmarks of humankind is their ability to be flexible. Having their template 0cp means they will be that much more flexible. One might buy +1DX, 4 points in Bow, and 1 point in fastdraw arrow. Another might have +1 IQ, and a further +1 will or perception. Another might have luck, and another might have wealth. Let the human player have the advantage that comes with being a human with the flexibility.

3) The GURPS-System is built on the axiom that humans are 0 points changing this could have unforeseen consequences...

4) As for "balance reasons" I don't think there is a need for racial templates to have the same point cost: IMHO a 'template' is not the final character but a kind of framework for the character: So if we had e.g. 150 cp overall and all 'templates' would cost 125 cp the player can decide what to do with the last 25 cp: he/she could take a racial-template for 25cp or maybe one for 20cp and the last 5 cp are spent for skills or maybe no one but a 25cp advantage etc. ... (but all chars would have the same cp - balanced)



Your template looks nice so far but in my opinion you should also think about a disadvantage-limit or maybe even better a static negative point-cost for disads for the racial templates if you want them to be balanced...

Nope, disagree here. One of the greatest strengths of templates is ignoring the disad limit for a campaign. However, the disadvantages are that it's an all or none thing. You get all the traits in the package, which means it's powerful but inflexible. Again, leans to humankind's benefit as humans don't have a disadvantage in the template that may not fit the character archetype. I do agree with the idea about the template being variable point cost, up to the campaign limit. A powerful template would make taking disads required to customize the character at all. Here's the only place I'd consider the template's disads in the design of the character, and it'd be on a Player by Player basis, making sure someone didn't try to take a powreful template then load disads on it to go over the board. Freshly hatched Hatchling Dragon, for instance, might cost 150cp, with 300 points in advantages and -150 points in disadvantages. In a template like that, I might limit the player to at most 10 points in disads to buy up to 10 points in skills only. (Note, Hatchling Dragon is based on the Palladium concept, where they come out of the egg with some skills already)

[Exxar]

Originally Posted by OldSam

1) If we imagine all humans in your world would have luck - what would this be? With a view only on humans competing against each other no one would have luck because they 'neutralize' each other on the other hand all other races would probably be social underdogs if they are all "unlucky" in comparison to the human race...

Not all humans have luck! But all those who go on GURPS Dungeon Fantasy adventures do!

Originally Posted by OldSam

2) Racial Skills? I don't think there is good explanation for this, you could rather think of regional or society-specific skills if you want this kind of things...

Nah, too complicated, just give humans those 10 points to spend on any skills they wish.

Originally Posted by OldSam

3) The GURPS-System is built on the axiom that humans are 0 points changing this could have unforeseen consequences...

Dude, this is Dungeon Fantasy... consequences are at the treasure chest down the dungeon!


Overall, you are missing the point of GURPS Dungeon Fantasy :)


EDIT: Argh, I responded to the topic before I saw the OP date (don't know how I missed the topic before), I suppose some of this has already been said :)

[pnewman]

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Racial Template - Caveman

Caveman [+25 points]

ST +2 [20], HT + 2 [20],
DR 1 (skull only -70%) [2] DR 1 (tough skin -40%) [3], Fit [5], Talent/Stalker/1 [5], Temperature Tolerance (Cold) 1 [1], Terrain Adaptation - Snow [5], Racially learned Skill - Survival/Arctic - IQ [2]

Speaks Caveman (native/none] [-3], Primitive TL 0 [-15], Social Stigma - Outsider [-10], Social Stigma - Uneducated [-5], Short Lifespan 1 [-1]*, Quirkes - Dull [-1], Staid [-1], Humble [-1], Dislikes Machinery [-1]
Taboo Traits - Other languages at more than Broken fluency [0], Any written languages at more than Broken fluency [0]

* I am deliberately reducing the cost of all aging related advantages and disadvantages for GURPS Dungeon Fantasy, on the assumption that most Dungeon Fantasy campaigns won't last long enough, in game time, for them to matter as much.

A primitive survivor of a bygone era, your people struggle to survive in a frozen wilderness. One of a very few of your people to move to the Warmlands, you probably took the Barbarian or Druid Template.

[pnewman]

GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Racial Template - Ogre

Ogre [+25]

ST + 10 (size -10%) [90], DX -1 [-20], IQ -2 [-40], Per + 1 [5], HT +3 [30], Size Modifier +1 [0], Basic Move +1 [5]. DR 3 (tough skin (-40%) [9], High Pain Threshold [10], Racially leaned Skill - Cooking w/ a specialization in cooking sentients - IQ (IQ outside specialization) [1].

Gluttony [-5], Ugly Appearance [-8], Social Stigma - Monster [-15], Odious Racial Habit (Eats other sentients) [-15], Primitive TL 0 [-15], Social Stigma - Uneducated [-5], Quirkes - Distractible [-1], Likes Fighting [-1].

They run and call you 'Monster!' You'll show the puny ones just what a 'monster' can do. They'll never mock you once you've eaten them.

This race is probably not suitable for most campaigns, and was more of a test
to see if I could do them with 25 points.

[SandmanBr]

...

Gargoyle [25 points]
Attribute Modifiers: IQ-1 [-20]; Per +1 [5]
Advantages: Acute Vision +2 [4]; Sharp Claws [5]; DR +2 (Tough Skin) [6]; Flight (Winged) [30]; Night Vision +4 [4]; Striker Horns (Cr Cannot Parry, Limited Arc) [1]; Striker Tail (Cannot Parry, Weak) [1]
Disadvantages: Social Stigma (Minority Group) [-10]; Shyness or Curiosity [-5]
Skills: Climbing DX+0 [2]; Flight HT+0 [2]

[Kromm]

FWIW, I am working on a third DF PDF right now, and it will include some racial templates. To prevent any chance that I might read this thread and steal somebody's ideas, I'm not reading this thread, but hiding it from myself (all hail admin powerz!). So please don't take my lack of input here personally . . . and don't be surprised if the "official" cat-girl, troll, etc., are nothing like the ones that will eventually show up here. ;) Especially as I'm deliberately creating totally different races from Banestorm and Fantasy, but reusing the names.

[Smirg]

I did something similar for a just-for-fun that-other-game conversion (never intended for a real campaign, but got two one-shot-tests), races also had 25 points each (except kobolds, which were -25, but they are supposed to suck...).

Humans had no fixed racial advantages but rather, each class template included a "human boost" of 25 points, usually including both enhancements to the classes core ability and a bit of on-the-sides extra stuff not every regular class member had.


One thing I would definitely be wary of (from experience) is "balancing" combat-related advantages with social disadvantages in a dungeon-centric game. ST, HP and DR are especially "dangerous" in this regard.
The Ogre is an extreme example, because any opponent who is though enough DR-wise to prove a considerable challenge to a regular (e.g. human) fighter will not make much difference to an Ogre. Most likely, he will still be knocked down with a single blow (4d damage or more including class bonus to ST, x1.5 for an edged weapon or x2 for a pick)...
Add to that the DR. Even with only furs, your ogre will likely be equal with a chainmailed human, and has the potential to become nigh-invulnerable to run-off-the-mill cannon-fodder dungeon denizens. This does not even take his extra +10 HP into account, which makes him extremely hard to stun or otherwise disable (added to by +3 HT).
You can't even outrun him with his BM bonus and probably at most light encumbrance even in very heavy armor.
Basically, the only way to get at him is using mind-control, and thats more or less a death sentence for the rest of the PCs. Should be really fun for the other players if he can do everything alone.

The 10% or so of the adventure in a town (getting quest and provisions, selling loot)? Let one of the other guys do it while Mr. Smashy waits outside. 90% of the adventure belong to him anyway. Or just level the town and take what you need, let's see how a few poorly-equipped militia guys tell a plate-over-chainmail clad ogre that they don't want him in the town square... (yeah, thats where the ogre players extra CPs will go to... Signature Gear).


Now, you mentioned that you probably won't allow Ogres as PCs, but the same goes to an extend for other "physical" races. In a dungeon, the social difficulties are basically free points, even when reduced in disadvantage point value...


The whole thing probably won't be a problem with the races spending a good deal of their points on Darkvision like Hobgoblins (because most dungeon crawls don't deal with illumination too much when it gets in the way of a good hack, so 25 points are likely overpriced).
But the Caveman (I really like your writeup btw.) could be a problem once he gets his hands on decent equipment (his pals can show him how to use it) because he'd just be a plain better fighter than, say, an elf, and not by a negligible amount. The Reptile Man even more, because of disadvantages with probably even less impact and a higher DR (decent natural weapons are also handy in a grapple).


Actually, when playing a mage in such a dungeon crawl game, I will always take more HP (through ST, which also allows carrying a bit more armor), HT (FP for casting!) and DR over a single point in IQ. This may differ if you use standard GURPS Magic rules (which I don't usually use) and the mage template is designed to put you exactly at the reduced cost mark with one point per spell, but even then I'd go with the extra survival skills (reduced cost is somewhat balanced by the +2 FP through HT).

I know that when I tried something like this with my players, it became a monster parade...


PS: I could upload my version somewhere if you like, but it won't help too much because it is rather unbalanced in the way I described).



EDIT: Kromm posted while I was writing this monster post, so:
As Icelander said, go ahead and take what you like (though I guess you'll have fun building your own anyway). You can even make additional money by selling official "Kromm stole my template"-T-Shirts through warehouse 23... :)

[jimmyjimjam]

How about one of these templates for a race like the Pixie-fairies from Hackmaster? Perhaps very difficult to do. What about Leprechauns? Ive always wondered why they arent a standard race in some games. Does it have anything to do with breakfast cereal I wonder?