[MA] Techniques: How to build... Cleave?

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

You know, I'm really wondering how Whirlwind Attack fits into the design system now...

Whirlwind Attack

• Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), +4
• Combat Option: Rapid Strike, five extra attacks (a total of six, for the six hexes around you) is -6×5 = -30, but halved for this being cinematic and the user being Trained by a Master or a Weapon Master, -15*
• Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
• Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
• Drawback: Can't step, can only turn in place, +1
• Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
• Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
• Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1

Default = 4 - 15 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -5

* Yes, technically you don't need Trained by a Master or Weapon Master to attempt this at default. Those who lack those traits really ought to be at -20, not -5. But since it's an All-Out Attack that leaves you without defenses, quite likely still surrounded by foes who made defense rolls, we let it slide.

[Bruno]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Whirlwind Attack...

Oh-HO. Ok, so lets see if I can bash together my take then...
Realistic Cleaving Attack

• Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), +4
• Combat Option: Rapid Strike, two extra attacks (a total of three, for your three front hexes) is -6×3 = -18 for the "realistic" version.
• Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
• Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
• Drawback: Can't step, can't change facing, +1
• Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
• Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
• Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1

Default = 4 - 18 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -8

I find myself wondering what forcing the attacks to be handled as Wild Swings would do to the technique system.


Cinematic Cleaving Attack

• Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Strong), +0
• Combat Option: Rapid Strike, two extra attacks (a total of three, for your three front hexes) is -6×3 = -18/2 = -9 for the Cinematic/Weapon Master version.
• Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
• Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
• Drawback: Can't step, can't change facing, +1
• Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
• Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
• Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1

Default = 0 - 9 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -3

[Kromm]

Were I designing this "Cleave" thing, I'd start with Whirlwind Attack, but there are elements that I'd handle differently. All-Out Attack (Determined) is plausible, I guess, but seems out of keeping with the spirit, so I'd say All-Out Attack (Strong). I would reuse the Rapid Strike mechanic, on the argument that you are getting extra attacks however you slice it, but I'd bust it down to two extra attacks, on the assumption that you're going from front-left through front-center to front-right hexes, and not actually spinning 360°. I'd retain most of the drawbacks, but I'd dump a few: "Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills" seems bad, since you'll want to combine this with Power Blow and with Targeted Attacks that sever limbs; "Multiple critical misses on any critical miss" is also poor, as you're not setting out to attack several foes, and in fact might not cleave through and even get the chance to do so; and "Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty" is unfair, because fighters will want to hack right through a row of weapon arms or forward legs. On the other hand, you do have to cut right through your targets -- that's a drawback. So:

Cleave

• Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Strong), +0
• Combat Option: Rapid Strike, two extra attacks (a total of three, for the three front hexes) is -6×2 = -12, but halved for this being cinematic and the user being Trained by a Master or a Weapon Master, -6*
• Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
• Drawback: Can't step, can only change facing toward each foe, +1
• Drawback: Limited to swings in a fixed order against frontal foes, +1
• Drawback: Must cut through (or miss!) previous target to engage next one, +1

Default = 0 - 6 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -2

* Again, technically you don't need Trained by a Master or Weapon Master to attempt this at default. If allowing this to just anybody for some reason, then the default ought to be -8, not -2.

The wording would be something like:

Cleave*

Hard

Default: prerequisite skill-2.
Prerequisite: Any Melee Weapon skill; cannot exceed prerequisite skill.

Cleave is a special All-Out Attack that lets you attempt to slice through up to three adjacent foes in front of you! If you make a Cleave, it's all you can do that turn, no matter how fast or skilled you are. Since it's an All-Out Attack, it leaves you with no active defenses. Otherwise, the rules below replace the usual ones for that maneuver.

When you launch a Cleave, you cannot step. Instead, you stand in place and attack up to three foes in front of you, from left to right or from right to left (your choice), changing facing as you strike each one. All of your attacks must be strikes with a swung cutting weapon.

Choose your hit location on the first foe and then roll against Cleave to hit. Your opponent defends normally. If he fails to defend, then roll your usual weapon damage against him, at +2 or +1 per die, whichever is better. If you targeted a limb or an extremity and did enough damage to dismember, or if you targeted the torso, neck, face, or skull and managed to kill your victim, then your Cleave passes through his body; proceed to the next enemy in order and repeat the process. You can also continue if your attack misses or your opponent dodges. Otherwise, your weapon stops and your turn ends. You can cut through at most two additional foes after the first.

You can combine Cleave with other techniques, such as Targeted Attack, and with cinematic skills, such as Power Blow, to improve its effectiveness. You always end your Cleave facing the last foe you attacked.

[JoelSammallahti]

Could we work it into the Cleave technique that causing knockback is also valid for passing to the next target? This would make it useful for sumotori shoving people around, and super bricks tossing around lesser opponents without killing?

EDIT: Or maybe that should be a separate technique, for crushing weapons and unarmed strikes.

[Exxar]

Well, since this ain't realistic, I see no need for differentiating techniques for different weapon types (and I don't see any other reasons for that besides realism). Just use it with any swung weapon and say that if you cause knockback your Cleave proceeds normally. Seems very reasonable to me.

[Peter V. Dell'Orto]

Originally Posted by Kromm

[*]Drawback: Must cut through (or miss!) previous target to engage next one, +1

I'd make this "must cut through, inflict knockback on, or miss previous target." That way you can use this with massive crushing weapons too, or fail to cut a man in half but smack him out of the way enough to engage the next guy.

I'd allow this for Shove, too - for casual arm sweeps by incredibly strong folks against mobs of weaklings.

You guys, by the way, just got a taste of what happened when I asked Sean how Whirlwind Attack costed out. It's your own secret glimpse into the dreamworld that is "writing a book on combat with Sean as your co-author." It's like a magic wishing well of rules.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

I'd allow this for Shove, too - for casual arm sweeps by incredibly strong folks against mobs of weaklings.

Sau-ron! Sau-ron! Sau-ron!

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Whirlwind Attack

• Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), +4
• Combat Option: Rapid Strike, five extra attacks (a total of six, for the six hexes around you) is -6×5 = -30, but halved for this being cinematic and the user being Trained by a Master or a Weapon Master, -15*
• Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
• Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
• Drawback: Can't step, can only turn in place, +1
• Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
• Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
• Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1

Default = 4 - 15 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -5

* Yes, technically you don't need Trained by a Master or Weapon Master to attempt this at default. Those who lack those traits really ought to be at -20, not -5. But since it's an All-Out Attack that leaves you without defenses, quite likely still surrounded by foes who made defense rolls, we let it slide.

Okay, if that's the way they're built (Techniques), I don't get one thing: why would I ever wish to include the AoA bit in the technique build? IMO being able to buy off those -4 of penalties by points or get +4 to compensate from an AoA is always superior to being limited to using it on an AoA.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Molokh

Okay, if that's the way they're built (Techniques), I don't get one thing: why would I ever wish to include the AoA bit in the technique build? IMO being able to buy off those -4 of penalties by points or get +4 to compensate from an AoA is always superior to being limited to using it on an AoA.

This is answered in Designing Realistic Techniques on p. 93 and Designing Cinematic Techniques on p. 94. If there's something unclear in those sections, please feel free to ask.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Rev. Pee Kitty

This is answered in Designing Realistic Techniques on p. 93 and Designing Cinematic Techniques on p. 94. If there's something unclear in those sections, please feel free to ask.

Yep. We out-and-out say, "Yes, you can build no-downside killer techniques. In a realistic game, you shouldn't." Then we play red light/green light with a long list of stuff. Then we repeat it all for cinematic games. By the end of all that, it's quite clear why you might do something less-than-optimal for reasons of realism. But gee, I wrote all that in the book, in better words, so people should read that. ;)