Difficult Monster Adding (and other questions)

[Karmaaa]

Hi, I've recently got the game and have a couple of questions, one concerning the tactical, evil and munchkinly use of wandering monsters. A case similar to my question was already in the FAQ:

Q. What if the Gazebo appears as a Wandering Monster after the player already has a helper?
A. Okay, that's the exception. The helper has to back off and let the player whose turn it is fight the Gazebo, and the other monster(s), alone.

That would imply that the monster's "special abilities" or "wickednesses" still count as negative for the player. I assume that in the above situation, the player helping must withdraw and may get back any potions he had played.

But in some more exotic and less straight-forward (in my opinion) combinations, I'm not quite sure what would happen. It's not in rules or FAQ's that I looked in.


Question 1...

What if a player (player A) opens a door, and encounters the level 8 Ghoulfiends; "No items help against them - play with your character level only". Say this person is level 6, but has enough bonuses (items) for his effective level to be 18. He plays "baby" on the ghoulfiends, making them level 3 (he'd lose otherwise, 6 vs 8, now it's 6 vs 3). What would happen if some other player (player B) would now play a wandering monster; a level 10 net troll without special powers, to keep it 'simple'? You can probably see what the difficulty is. The monsters are now level 13 in total (3 + 10). The ghoulfiends card says: "fight with character level only". But the Net Troll is a normal monster. If you add their combat levels, player A could beat them with his items and level (18 vs 13). But if you consider BOTH monsters to apply for the "fight using level only", he'd lose (6 vs 13). What happens?

Logically, I'd go for the idea that ádding monsters makes a fight *more difficult*. But then again, this ís munchkin, and that idea is nowhere in the rules ofcourse.

If the 'what I think is logical' bit DOES apply, and he would lose, then I can think of an even trickier situation:


Same as above, but rather than tossing up a "simple" level 10 monster without special powers, he wanders a level 14 insurance salesman into the combat! Now this card reads: "Your Level does not count. Fight him only with your bonuses!"

Applying the same logic as I did before, this would make his fight more difficult, and he'd be facing a total of level 17 of monsters, fighting with 0 levels of his own. But alternatively, you could think "well, the one card says he can use his bonuses, and the other card says he fights with his level, sóóó he is effectively level 18 and he'd beat the both of them".

There's a contradiction in the cards, the one card says something and the other card says the complete opposite. What counts? One of the two cards, the most negative part, or what?


That whole combat-monsterthing was pretty much Question 1.


Question 2: if yóu draw Divine Intervention and yóu have a cleric class in your hand, can you play that and become a cleric simultaneously to enjoy the divine intervention just as it's happening?

Question 3: I read in the FAQ that items (wielded / carried) can ONLY be discarded in the following ways:

As part of a sale (but see above for the rule on a minimum for selling Items)
To power a special ability of a Class/Race or another card
To fulfill the requirements of Bad Stuff or a Curse!/Trap!
The Item is Big, you MUST get rid of it (because your hireling died or you are no longer a Dwarf) and there is no one who can take it

This would imply that you can indeed nót discard an item you carry or wield yourself. Say you are carrying or wielding a Big item (and that's as many as you can carry), would this mean that you cannót discard it to wield a different item that you got for example by a treasure? You could trade it of course, but friends might see through your vile wickedness and say NO! instead. In that case, could you still not discard it normally?

Question 4: Selling: say you can't discard it (the Big item from question 3, scene 24). You do have enough weapons to come up with 1000 gold, bút you're level 9. Can you still sell them to go up a level that doesn't count, i.e. you remain level 9 but now got rid of the item(s)? (you can't go up to level 10 through stuffselling, but you're not selling it for the level - you're selling it to get rid of the Big item.)
I ask this because if you cán "buy" a level, you can add a lot of useless cards to that just to get rid of them, without gaining a level. If you have a 600 gp sword and 400 gp boots, you can still add 900 gold worth of stuff just to get rid of it. Including that 0 gold worth Huge rock (which is Big) ofcourse.

Question 5: is the Very Impressive Title an Item? (it seems to be the only item-like card that doesn't quite seem to be an item.)

Question 6: whén can a cleric use his special ability of taking the top discard pile card rather than a face-up card? The cleric ability reads: "When it is time for you to draw a card face-up, you may instead take the top card from the appropriate discard pile. You must then discard one card from your hand.". So it only applies to cards drawn face-up. Which are those? Err, let me think. Looting the room and drawing treasures are both face down. Unless you got aid in combat, thén they are face up; but also doors. Doors are cards, and they're drawn face-up... Can you instead of opening a door, "open" the top door from the discard pile, discarding a card from your hand?



Furthermore I more or less disagree with this entry of the FAQ:

Q. King Tut and the Wight Brothers say "Characters of higher levels [than 3] lose 2 levels, even if they escape.." Does that mean you lose two levels even if you defeat those monsters?
A. No. But if you cannot defeat them, then you must try to run away, and you'll lose the 2 levels even if you do escape. If they catch you, of course, they reduce you to Level 1.

If this is how it works, then the text on the cards should be considered to be errata-oneous. Consider: the text clearly says "Characters of higher levels [than 3] lose 2 levels, even if they escape." It isn't in the bad stuff, so it should be considered a special ability.

If what you say here is correct ("if you cannot defeat them, then you must try to run away, and you'll lose the 2 levels even if you do escape. If they catch you, of course, they reduce you to Level 1."), then the use of the word even would imply that the bad stuff sums up to "lose 2 levels, and afterwards, you're reduced to level 1.", which is just plain silly. I like it, but it's still wrong. The only other remaining possibility besides succesfully running away and losing, is winning, and therefore just by looking at the word "even" you should be forced to conclude that you're going to lose 2 levels no matter that..

Nowhere on the card does it mention anything about it not counting if you win. And since you do gain 2 levels for defeating it, it's more or less, "killing it doesn't give level increase". With a lot of additional bummerness if you cán't defeat it.

I'd make an exception for magically getting rid of the monster, though, since that just discards the monster no matter what it is or does.


Yes, I am a nerd. It's a lot of fun :D

[RevBob]

Please take note in the future of the advisability of starting multiple threads to handle multiple, unrelated questions. As quick answers, though, and with some editing to make your questions shorter:

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 1...

What if a player (player A {level 6, +12 in bonuses}) opens a door, and encounters the level 8 Ghoulfiends; "No items help against them - play with your character level only". He plays "baby" on the ghoulfiends, making them level 3. What would happen if some other player (player B) {snip} wanders a level 14 insurance salesman into the combat! Now this card reads: "Your Level does not count. Fight him only with your bonuses!"

Run away - fast. You cannot use your items, nor can you use your levels...just as the cards say. Your fighting strength here is zero.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 2: if yóu draw Divine Intervention and yóu have a cleric class in your hand, can you play that and become a cleric simultaneously to enjoy the divine intervention just as it's happening?

DI says to play it immediately - that means before doing anything else like playing a Class card.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 3: Say you are carrying or wielding a Big item (and that's as many as you can carry), would this mean that you cannót discard it to wield a different item that you got for example by a treasure?

Because you quoted (and presumably read) the part of the rules dealing with multiple Big items, I must assume that the "different item" you mean is not Big. Why not just put the Big item in your backpack (carried but not wielded) and use the new item? I don't get why you need to discard the Big item.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 4: {snip} Can you still sell them to go up a level that doesn't count, i.e. you remain level 9 but now got rid of the item(s)?

No. You sell items to go up levels, not to get rid of them - and you can't sell to go up from level 9.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

(you're not selling it for the level - you're selling it to get rid of the Big item.)

I still don't see why you're so desperate to get rid of this Big item. If you want to be able to use a different Big item that you've drawn, the rule you quoted applies: play the new Big item, at which point you have more than one and must discard one, so you discard the one you don't want. If you want to be able to use a Small item, then you still only have one Big item - so you stop using the Big item, carry it in your backpack, and start using the Small item. No problem.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 5: is the Very Impressive Title an Item? (it seems to be the only item-like card that doesn't quite seem to be an item.)

"Each Item card has a name, a power, a size, and a value in gold pieces." Given that if a size is not specified, it is Small, and that a power generally consists of a bonus and/or a special (described) ability, does V.I.T. fit that definition?

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Question 6: {snip} Can {a cleric} instead of opening a door, "open" the top door from the discard pile, discarding a card from your hand?

Why couldn't he? That's pretty much the definition of the power.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

Furthermore I more or less disagree with this entry of the FAQ:

You may disagree all you wish, but it's still the official ruling.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

If this is how it works, then the text on the cards should be considered to be errata-oneous. Consider: the text clearly says "Characters of higher levels [than 3] lose 2 levels, even if they escape."

Correct. Think of it as "Bad Stuff Lite" if that helps; it's a lesser Bad Stuff that you can't Run Away from.

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

If what you say here is correct ("if you cannot defeat them, then you must try to run away, and you'll lose the 2 levels even if you do escape. If they catch you, of course, they reduce you to Level 1."), then the use of the word even would imply that the bad stuff sums up to "lose 2 levels, and afterwards, you're reduced to level 1.", which is just plain silly. I like it, but it's still wrong. The only other remaining possibility besides succesfully running away and losing, is winning, and therefore just by looking at the word "even" you should be forced to conclude that you're going to lose 2 levels no matter that..

There are four possible outcomes:

1. You win, and lose no levels.
2. You don't win, but you successfully get away and "only" lose 2 levels.
3. You don't win and don't escape, in which case you lose 2 levels (per special ability) and any other levels you have, so you're reduced to Level 1 (Bad Stuff).
4. You get rid of the monster in some way, at which point it's no longer in the combat and cannot cost you levels.

[Karmaaa]

Originally Posted by RevBob

Please take note in the future of the advisability of starting multiple threads to handle multiple, unrelated questions.

Sorry about that. And thanks for your answers so far. The ones I don't reply to I will consider dealth with, thank you :)

I still don't see why you're so desperate to get rid of this Big item. If you want to be able to use a different Big item that you've drawn, the rule you quoted applies: play the new Big item, at which point you have more than one and must discard one, so you discard the one you don't want.

AH. That one wasn't in the list of possible ways to discard items, so I thought that once you were carrying a Big item, you couldn't legally discard it apart from getting a hireling killed, or changing from Dwarf to non-Dwarf. In other words being stuck with a specific Item and being unable to carry a different one instead. But if you can just discard it for having "too many Big items" after wielding a second, then that's the answer to my question.

You can only CARRY one Big item (even in your 'backpack') and that was where my question originated.

"Each Item card has a name, a power, a size, and a value in gold pieces." Given that if a size is not specified, it is Small, and that a power generally consists of a bonus and/or a special (described) ability, does V.I.T. fit that definition?

Ah, but that's applying logic backwards. It says: "Each Item card has a name, a power, a size, and a value in gold pieces." It does *NOT* say that every card that has those characteristics, is therefore an Item. A creature with wings that makes an annoying buzzing noise isn't a mosquito per definition, although mosquitos are creatures with wings that make an annoying buzzing noise.
I can think of potions that have a name, a power, a size (none - therefore small?) and a value, and would therefore be Items. But they're not. Thinking of a Really Impressive Title, I'm not yet completely convinced that it's a small Item... Simply because it's not an item.

Why couldn't he? That's pretty much the definition of the power.

I wasn't sure if it was intended for drawing treasures only, or whether opening doors also counts as the 'cards drawn open' as stated in the Cleric's power.

You may disagree all you wish, but it's still the official ruling.

Then it should be listed among the Errata.

There are four possible outcomes:
1. You win, and lose no levels.

Pretty much the only one I'm not completely sure of. Nowhere on the card does it say this, unless you mean "lose no levels" because the card says lose two, but killing it gains two - nett losing or gaining no levels.

If you meant gain two levels (for killing the monster), please explain how you could deduce that from the text on the card, or agree with me that this is an errata nominee. :)

[MunchkinMan]

Okay, a few things:

1) Bob's right on almost all points except one: You can't just discard an Item, even if it's a Big Item and you want to play another Big Item. Trade or sell first, then play your new Big Item.

2) How are Potions not Items? Or, what Potions aren't Items?

3) You don't get to disagree with the FAQ and you don't get to tell me what is and isn't errata. The FAQ is a place to explain commonly misunderstood issues. The errata is a place to inform on critically missing text or changes in text for future printings. If you choose to continue misunderstanding something intentionally after you've been given an official answer, I can't help you.

4) The next time you post that many questions in that long a post when I've specifically requested that people not do that, I'll just delete the thread.

[LinkN]

I would say that the "will not pursue" and "even if they escape" bits would imply that you are only affected by this if you attempt to escape, and nothing happens if you simply win the fight.

[Karmaaa]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

Okay, a few things:

1) Bob's right on almost all points except one: You can't just discard an Item, even if it's a Big Item and you want to play another Big Item. Trade or sell first, then play your new Big Item.

So it's possible to get into a position where you'd like to get rid of a Big item, but can't, as nobody will take it (And you can't sell it for levels)?

2) How are Potions not Items? Or, what Potions aren't Items?

From the rules sheet: "An item in your hand does not count until you play it; at that point, it is "carried". You may carry any number of small items, but only one Big one." So the "items" referred to would have to be carriable or wieldable, and a potion is therefore a one-shot card, not an item. The "Very Impressive Title" card behaves like an item, you can "carry" it and it gives a constant bonus, but yet I can't really think of it as an item. I'd like to know if the rules say anything specific about this.

In a more concrete way, if a curse says to discard a small item, can one discard the Very Impressive Title? Could a thief steal it?

(It's also possible I'm just dead wrong and the potion IS an item, even though it's only one-shot. I guess my difficulty is just seeing a title as an item, so I was wondering if the game sees it as such or not.)

3) The FAQ is a place to explain commonly misunderstood issues. The errata is a place to inform on critically missing text or changes in text for future printings. If you choose to continue misunderstanding something intentionally after you've been given an official answer, I can't help you.

Hardly intentional misunderstanding, I just don't see how the FAQ came to that conclusion, and was hoping someone here could perhaps clarify it. What LinkN stated above this post sounds more or less likely to me. Note that in my question I did ask that íf this ís indeed how the rules are, whether one could explain how that is derived from the card, and that's what LinkN did here I suppose. But thanks for your help and hopefully not too many hard feelings.

Again sorry for my initial post length, as most questions are answered now the length won't be as bad from here. And I'll start seperate topics if I have questions in the future.

[MunchkinMan]

Originally Posted by Karmaaa

From the rules sheet: "An item in your hand does not count until you play it; at that point, it is "carried". You may carry any number of small items, but only one Big one." So the "items" referred to would have to be carriable or wieldable, and a potion is therefore a one-shot card, not an item. The "Very Impressive Title" card behaves like an item, you can "carry" it and it gives a constant bonus, but yet I can't really think of it as an item. I'd like to know if the rules say anything specific about this.

In a more concrete way, if a curse says to discard a small item, can one discard the Very Impressive Title? Could a thief steal it?

(It's also possible I'm just dead wrong and the potion IS an item, even though it's only one-shot. I guess my difficulty is just seeing a title as an item, so I was wondering if the game sees it as such or not.)

One-shot Items, like Potions, or Grenades, or Powders, etc. are Items as they fit the requirements of what the games rules define as an Item. I'm not entirely sure what gave you the wrong impression. Just because they are useable once only doesn't mean they can only be played to be used, they can, in fact, be carried as well. Since we're using rules snippets:

Any one-shot (“usable once only”) card can be played during any combat, whether you have it in your hand or on the table.

So, if it's a one-shot Item, you can play it to the table to carry it just as you would any "standard" Item (as is implied by the rules snippet above). Some one-shot Treasure cards aren't Items, but to my knowledge, none of them are potions.

And yes, a card in your hand is just a card in your hand, it isn't an Item yet.

As for the Title, yes, it can be stolen. Yes, it can be lost to a curse that tells you to lose an Item. Yes, it can be lost to Bad Stuff which tells you to lose an Item. Yes, it can be looted off your cold and stiffening corpse if you had it in play. Yes to all of that because it is an Item!

[Karmaaa]

Originally Posted by MunchkinMan

One-shot Items, like Potions, or Grenades, or Powders, etc. are Items as they fit the requirements of what the games rules define as an Item. I'm not entirely sure what gave you the wrong impression. Just because they are useable once only doesn't mean they can only be played to be used, they can, in fact, be carried as well. Since we're using rules snippets:

Any one-shot (“usable once only”) card can be played during any combat, whether you have it in your hand or on the table.

So, if it's a one-shot Item, you can play it to the table to carry it just as you would any "standard" Item (as is implied by the rules snippet above). Some one-shot Treasure cards aren't Items, but to my knowledge, none of them are potions.

And yes, a card in your hand is just a card in your hand, it isn't an Item yet.

As for the Title, yes, it can be stolen. Yes, it can be lost to a curse that tells you to lose an Item. Yes, it can be lost to Bad Stuff which tells you to lose an Item. Yes, it can be looted off your cold and stiffening corpse if you had it in play. Yes to all of that because it is an Item!

Thanks for clearing that up. :)

[Michiel]

As Karmaaa says, a card is an item when it has a bonus, power and worth in gold pieces. Because the r.i.t. has no worth I don't see how it is an item and thus could be stolen.

[MunchkinMan]

Please note that in 2006, when I wrote that post, Really Impressive Title was an Item with a value of No Value. We consciously made a change and posted errata for the card in 2008 or 2009 and definitely changed the physical card in the May 2010 reprint.