Questions Concerning Total/Partial Surprise

[Doktor Teufel]

There is only one page's worth of information in the Basic Set (page B393) covering Surprise Attacks, and I've read through that page many times at this point. There are still a few details that perplex me.

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable. And even then, characters with Combat Reflexes (that's most hero-type characters) are never really caught completely off guard. If the attackers do manage to achieve Total Surprise, then there's no need to roll initiative; the attackers get one or more rounds free to do as they wish.

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

[cccwebs]

There's a little part that you may be overlooking. Under Partial Suprise, is says "The GM should require each side to roll for initiative." That leads me to feel there is some working room in the suprise rules to cover your ambush situation, though the rules are a bit "fuzzy" on it. I'd say that in your ambush situation, unless the players had some sort of warning about the impending attack, they wouldn't roll for initiative. Combat would occur as normal, except that those without Combat Reflexes would suffer from the rules for Total Suprise. This is only my take on it, or how I'd work with a "fuzzy" rules situation. Though I can understand situations where the ambushers might be on the losing side if an Initiative roll, especially if they "jump out of hiding" expecting unaware victims and wind up getting battle ready foes. The ambushers just might be "suprised" themselves. Maybe this is something that can be debated and possibly even added into the FAQ as suprises and ambushes are a commonplace event in role-playing games.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

There is only one page's worth of information in the Basic Set (page B393) covering Surprise Attacks, and I've read through that page many times at this point. There are still a few details that perplex me.

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable. And even then, characters with Combat Reflexes (that's most hero-type characters) are never really caught completely off guard. If the attackers do manage to achieve Total Surprise, then there's no need to roll initiative; the attackers get one or more rounds free to do as they wish.

Partial Surprise is odd. If the PCs (or adventurer-grade NPCs) are wary and alert, there is simply no way to catch them totally by surprise. So let's say a bunch of enemy NPCs have set up an ambush for the PCs. The PCs don't notice them at all, but because they're wary, when the NPCs pop out of their hiding places to start shooting, both sides roll initiative.

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

Is there something I'm missing?

IMO the most important part:
The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit!!!
Partial surprise covers everything from two unaware parties running into each other to an ambush. In case of an ambush you would just give the ambushing group a bonus of +5??? to initiative for the first round so they go first, but unlike in a total surprise situation the ambushed party can react immediatly...

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by cccwebs

There's a little part that you may be overlooking. Under Partial Suprise, is says "The GM should require each side to roll for initiative."

I haven't overlooked it, it's the main focus of my befuddlement. According to the description of Total Surprise, wary PCs (or NPCs) simply cannot be taken completely by surprise. I suppose a perfectly planned ambush wherein the attackers are not noticed by any of the targets, and wherein the ambushers start firing immediately from ready vantage points, should be considered Total Surprise.

That leads me to feel there is some working room in the suprise rules to cover your ambush situation, though the rules are a bit "fuzzy" on it. I'd say that in your ambush situation, unless the players had some sort of warning about the impending attack, they wouldn't roll for initiative. Combat would occur as normal, except that those without Combat Reflexes would suffer from the rules for Total Suprise.

Yeah, what you just described is Total Surprise, to the letter -- but the way I read Total Surprise, wary, seasoned characters cannot be taken totally by surprise, period.

Maybe this is something that can be debated and possibly even added into the FAQ as suprises and ambushes are a commonplace event in role-playing games.

I hope so. Perhaps a little rain dance and an offering of a fattened calf might attract the attention of Dr. Kromm...

[Doktor Teufel]

Originally Posted by Der Wanderer

IMO the most important part:
The GM can apply other modifiers as he sees fit!!!
Partial surprise covers everything from two unaware parties running into each other to an ambush. In case of an ambush you would just give the ambushing group a bonus of +5??? to initiative for the first round so they go first, but unlike in a total surprise situation the ambushed party can react immediatly...

Well, in Partial Surprise, the losers of the initiative roll still are unable to act for at least one round, and they have to make their IQ roll to act.

[fredo1]

Initiative losers dont act first. They are mentally stunned and they have according penalties. When the winners of initiative are done with their actions, the losers take their turn, if they pass their IQ rolls to recover from mental stun. Those without Combat Reflexes are frozen if it was a Total Surprise situation.

[Brandy]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

That means that if attackers have an ambush set up and a wary group walks into the trap, the attackers could somehow lose initiative and the ones the ambushers intended to attack would end up getting one or more free turns instead!

That makes no sense to me. I can deal with the defenders getting to act normally, but getting to act BEFORE the ambushers? Wow.

This should be incredibly rare, but I find this possibility to be dramatically appropriate -- certainly there are times in the movies where the heroes gain a stunning reversal in an ambush situation because one of the attackers reveals himself too early by trodding on a twig or what-have-you.

Also, as I read the rules on Surprise, the Surprise situation seems to me (though I don't think it's quite explicit) to be describing the situation where the attackers and defenders can mutually perceive one another (i.e. backing up through the woods and bumping in to one another; entering the saloon and seeing the James gang; et cetera). This situation isn't entirely like the first salvo from an ambush -- either the attacker or defender may see his opponent but may be unable to act due to surprise.

The first shot from an unseen opponent (like sniper fire) doesn't, in my view, call for a surprise check until *after* the attack is made (and of course, no active defense would apply).

Take a look at Attack from Above, p. 402. In that situation, if the attacker fails to perceive the attacker, no defense is allowed and a surprise check may be called for in addition to the undefended attack from above.

An ambush situation calls for a contest of stealth or camouflage versus perception for the initial attack, not a surprise check -- though a surprise check is certainly apropos after that attack has occurred.

That's what the intent seems to me to be. I don't think it's errata, but if I'm on the right track, it could stand to be in the FAQ.

[Der Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

Well, in Partial Surprise, the losers of the initiative roll still are unable to act for at least one round, and they have to make their IQ roll to act.

Ohh my bad...
But the main message is that the GM adds modifiers to the initiative rolls...
Both parties are surprised: no additional modifiers
A ambushes B: B (or the leader thereoff) gets -X to their rolls (X might be depending on how well A planned the success (marigin of success in their strategy? roll)

[fredo1]

Its all about vision, hearing and sometimes smell rolls. Who detects who first determines who goes first. I had a table for all those things in 3rd edition, an amalgam of all detection rules for GURPS (ecpecially those from Vehicles concerning +10 to all sense rolls, woods penalty, fog penalty, and so on. So, ambushers could find themselves in a nasty ambush themselves if they were spotted in time to react (a nasty "surprise", wouldnt you say:) )

[Wedhro]

Originally Posted by Doktor Teufel

First of all, Total Surprise is very difficult to achieve. To catch adventurers and adventurer-type NPCs completely by surprise, you either have to do something completely zany, unexpected and off-the-wall (werewolves bursting into the public library), or get them when they're sleeping or otherwise incredibly vulnerable.

I totally agree with you, so I tweaked a little bit the partial suprise thing starting from the sentence "when the defenders were expecting trouble":
I treat an ambush or similar surprise situation as a 'partial suprise' only if my players told me in advance that they are expecting that specific kind of danger, or if the surprise situation is predictable given the place they are travelling along, the task they are carrying out etc... otherwise I treat it as 'total surprise'.

Example: a group of adventurers are following the tracks of a renegade mercenary troop they were ordered to capture; the leader of the PCs knows that the mercs are aware of being pursued, and that the wood they are walking in is plagued by flocks of blood-sucking bats. If the goup is ambushed by the mercs or attacked by bats this is partial surprise, but if a tiger suddenly leaps in front of them by the bushes, or they are attacked by elf archers, well, this is total surprise to me!