Feint combat maneuver with margin of success of zero (foe fails)

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by gamaleo

My question is about the Feint maneuver scenario where the foe fails their quick contest roll but you succeed on your quick contest roll with a margin of success of zero.

Something I've doen to improve Feints - because as they stand they are inferior to Deceptive Attack - is to instead use the Margin of Victory, that is the MoS of the Feint plus their foe's MoF. As an equation this looks like Margin of Feint - Margin of Defense = , capped at 0 (the 'capped at - means the defender cannot get a bonus to their defense from this*).

As bonus you will never have a MoV of 0.


* I did do once allowing for the defender's to get a defense bonus on a bad feint versus a good anti-feint roll, but it made for Players once again never wanting to Feint to avoid that.


Now I also allow a 'failed' Feint roll to still succeed if the defender has an even worse margin. Frex:

Feinting PC has a Rapier skill of 15 and they roll a 16 for -1 Margin, the defender has a DX of 12 and they roll a 15 for a -3 Margin; (-1) - (-3) = 2, giving the defender a -2 penalty to their defenses against the Feinting PC's next attack.

As a bonus knowing that they can still succeed even on a 'failed' roll has made Feints a bit more popular among PCs with skills below 16.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Something I've doen to improve Feints - because as they stand they are inferior to Deceptive Attack - is to instead use the Margin of Victory

[..]

Now I also allow a 'failed' Feint roll to still succeed if the defender has an even worse margin.

This is basically changing a Feint from being a special case that is like a Quick Contest, to just being a Quick Contest. And while I was hesitant about it at first (as noted earlier in the thread), I think this is both a way to give Feints a leg up as well as something that simplifies matters a bit.

As for victory against a Feint attempt giving a defense bonus, a lesser version might be appropriate for a duelist or similar. Riffing off t-bone's suggestion, maybe have every MoV 3 count as a free Evaluate against the Feinting character - the character gave away too much, allowing the defender to spot holes in their defenses (as well as clue them in on future deceptive attacks and the like). It's a benefit to reward a character who does a good job at resisting the Feint, but not such a large one as to make the players no longer willing to use that option. If it does make them hesitant, consider locking it behind a Perk - such a Perk would be appropriate for dedicated duelists and others who have opted to invest in the Feint Technique, but the bulk of foes wouldn't have it.

Originally Posted by tbone

Whether or not your Feint succeeded (i.e., resulted in a defense penalty for the target), as long as your roll succeeded (even by 0), treat the action as a turn of Evaluate.

I like it. It does make Evaluate a bit less valuable (sure, it's automatic rather than relying on a roll, but most characters who are going to be using Feint are likely to have sufficient skill to make the roll fairly reliable), but it also means you aren't completely discarding a previous Feint to try a new one.