"Based on (Attribute)" Telekinesis

[ericthered]

My gut reaction is that [50] is probably fair. That buys you up to ST 10 TK, and that's where post people start. You could argue for [60] because everyone is going to then guy up that attribute, I suppose, but I think TK is underutilized as it is, which inclines me to be generous

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by ericthered

My gut reaction is that [50] is probably fair. That buys you up to ST 10 TK, and that's where post people start. You could argue for [60] because everyone is going to then guy up that attribute, I suppose, but I think TK is underutilized as it is, which inclines me to be generous

Your reasoning does make me think [50] to get it to full attribute is probably appropriate - while I can see justification to make it [60] as you say, I'm similarly inclined to be generous. I think I'd like to take it a step further, particularly as the current plan is that most "spells" are at -1 per +10% worth of Enhancements on the base attack ability built into wands or [1] as a separate Advantage* (meaning using TK at full QN would be a whopping -50 to skill) is to instead have it be [5] (-5) per 10% QN.

I was hoping maybe there was something already in the books for this (possibly in Psionic Powers), but if not, I think the above will work for my purposes (although if someone has another idea, feel free to suggest it). Thank you very much for the suggestion.


*The base ability granted by a Wand is treated as being worth [10] - it's essentially Crushing Natural Weapon (Ranged +100%) [10], and treating this as the base cost rather than the default [5] of such. So every +10% would be worth [1]. An argument could be made that a separate Advantage like TK would be built as an Alternate Ability, meaning -1 would be enough for an Advantage worth [5], -2 for an Advantage worth [10], and it would be -1 per [+1] thereafter. I haven't come to a decision in this regard yet, but it's something to consider.

I also intend for the TK to function differently than the default - it's visible, starts at the Wand and has to Move to the target, and can be targeted (having HP equal to its effective ST and being destroyed at 0 HP - but a Concentrate can restore a damaged one to full health instantly, or a new one can be conjured up). I haven't worked out all the Limitations involved - and thus how this might influence the price (or if I'll tack on some Enhancements to make up for them) - but at the very least I needed some idea on how to base it on QN rather than just saying "You can take levels up to QN."

[Flowergarden]

And how about stretching, with force extension? it can't be damaged, but temporary damage can be a limitation

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

And how about stretching, with force extension? it can't be damaged, but temporary damage can be a limitation

While certainly not a bad outside-the-box option, I still want this to be able to function like TK, including being able to do things like go into locks and manipulate them from within (which Stretching isn't going to be able to do). Additionally, I intend for it to serve as the basis for a fairly simple "Conjure Elemental" type spell, creating a servitor that works off your subconscious, and TK is a much better fit for that than Force Extension.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Varyon

but at the very least I needed some idea on how to base it on QN rather than just saying "You can take levels up to QN."

But it's not a bad option. If you have a casting check, based on QN (or is ot not?) than with more QN you have an sliding scale of precision and power. More TK levels - less skill. Me think more options - more interesting. But it would probably work only if one level TK gives -1 to skill...
Just a suggestion.

Another one, a little bit silly one. Maybe not little bit
What if QN is TK? And everything else is based on TK. TK should probably cost more after that, I would say +100%, maybe.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by ericthered

My gut reaction is that [50] is probably fair. That buys you up to ST 10 TK, and that's where post people start. You could argue for [60] because everyone is going to then guy up that attribute, I suppose, but I think TK is underutilized as it is, which inclines me to be generous

I've run it at [50] for a few years and it actually feels slightly overpriced (especially when adding in enhancements) but not enough that I'd want to make it cheaper. I generally prefer Extra Arm(s) w/ Force Extension and a few other modifiers to match what I'm going for as either GM or PC and that also comes out to a similar cost with different pros and cons.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by kirbwarrior

I've run it at [50] for a few years and it actually feels slightly overpriced (especially when adding in enhancements) but not enough that I'd want to make it cheaper. I generally prefer Extra Arm(s) w/ Force Extension and a few other modifiers to match what I'm going for as either GM or PC and that also comes out to a similar cost with different pros and cons.

Thank you, that makes me more confident in the idea of making it [5] (plus relevant modifiers*) per 10% of QN. Extra Arms could certainly be interesting. However, they are horrendously expensive and cost quite a bit to work at a distance - two Extra Arms that can sorta work at Reach 1 (Reach C attacks work at Reach 1, but longer ones still work at their normal Reach only) would already cost the same [50] as TK equal to QN, which would work at up to 10 yards away (Extra Arms 2 (Force Extension +50%; Long +100%) [50]). They would arguably have the benefit of it being a good deal easier to wield four weapons at once (or two two-handed weapons, or a mix), as you could attack with all as a Multi-Weapon Strike (at -4**, as for a DWA) with a single Attack maneuver, while someone using TK would need to choose between using Attack with their personal weapon(s) and Concentrate for their TK'd weapon(s).

*Visible is -20%. I feel the ability to target it like for Binding is probably worth another -20%. The fact it has to start within the Wand's Reach and then Move to its destination (rather than you being able to just instantly dictate where within 10 yards the effect manifests), with the side effect that if you move outside of its range it vanishes (if you're moved out of range outside of your turn, you can declare you'll use a Concentrate to move it toward you on your next turn, and if it can get within Range, it sticks around) is worth either -10% or -20%. So we're looking at either -50% or -60% worth of Limitations, which changes things to either -1 per 4% QN or -1 per 5% QN. If allowing for the first [10] to be priced as an Alternate Ability, that means either the first -1 is worth 20% QN and the second -1 (total -2) is worth 40% QN with +4% per -1 thereafter, or the first -1 is worth 25% QN and the second -1 is worth 50% QN with +5% per -1 thereafter. I'm leaning more toward the latter in both instances, as multiples of 5% tend to be easier to deal with than multiples of 4%. In cases of fractional QN, I'll probably round down for determining damage but will use the full value for calculating BL (someone with QN 17 that uses TK at 50% QN would have effective QN 8.5. That rounds down to 8 for damage, so thr 1d-3 sw 1d-2, but BL is 14.45, not the BL 12.8 that would be for QN 8).

**Personally, I feel a Multi-Weapon Strike should simply be at -2 per strike. So -4 for two, -6 for three, -8 for four, etc.

[Flowergarden]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The fact it has to start within the Wand's Reach and then Move to its destination (rather than you being able to just instantly dictate where within 10 yards the effect manifests), with the side effect that if you move outside of its range it vanishes (if you're moved out of range outside of your turn, you can declare you'll use a Concentrate to move it toward you on your next turn, and if it can get within Range, it sticks around) is worth either -10% or -20%

For some reason all I can think of is cost fatigue, variable. But with takes extra time instead (probably would be broken as a limitation). Or by moving to the target you mean some sort of weaponized-like limitation?

Okay, I reread and it's nothing I thought of at first (sorry, headache got me), you create an entity that can carry and pick up stuff. So, it's animation but without need of an object? Like half the limitation or look at trigger(or accessibility, i don't remember which one I use for necromancers). Never seen animation in action.

I would leave my train of thought, maybe you would find it useful.

For the cost per level. One time I tried to make a magic system with fatigue cost instead of skill. I asked couple of people on there opinions. And it was overly complicated. -1 per 5% sounds reasonable, better than 4. But -20/-20/-5 sounds not that good. You can make it n% free and +5% per -1. Or something. Like extra effort for psi powers.
Best system type is easy to learn hard to master.

I hope i made sense at least somewhere:)

[Kallatari]

Just to add another consideration, I believe the rules are that when you want to add an enhancement to your natural body (instead of to an advantage), you simply assume you're adding the enhancement to your ST as though you were pricing it from ST 0, but you only pay the enhancement value.

So, for example, Affects Insubstantial is +20%. If you want for your body to affect insubstantial, if you have ST 10, had you priced it starting for ST 0, that would be 100 points, so +20% to 100 points is 120 points. The difference is 20 points, so Affects Insubstantial as an ability for your natural body is worth 20 points.

TK is sort of like adding Ranged to your ST. Ranged is +40%. Assuming ST 10, that would make it give it a value of [40]. This is not perfect, however. You have a 1/2D range (so maybe 1/2 ST?) and Ranged to ST can't go through objects to affect something inside another object like TK can. So it would cost more than [40].

So I don't have a precise value using this method, but it does show that you're roughly in the same ballpark.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the value of TK was calculated this way in the first place, where they decided TK ST 10 of an average human would be 50 points (roughly a +50% enhancement to natural ST) and then divided by 10 to get the cost per level. (Edit: on the other hand, I likewise wouldn't be surprised if it was just a happy coincidence)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

Okay, I reread and it's nothing I thought of at first (sorry, headache got me), you create an entity that can carry and pick up stuff. So, it's animation but without need of an object? Like half the limitation or look at trigger(or accessibility, i don't remember which one I use for necromancers). Never seen animation in action.

Hmmm... yeah, Animation makes a lot of sense. We might be able to justify saying the fact the character is able to conjure up the "object" to be animated is balanced by the fact that it both cannot be used to animate existing objects and that it's restricted to starting within the Reach of the Wand. In that case, -20% would indeed be appropriate, as I intend for the animated object to be able to fly.

Originally Posted by Flowergarden

For the cost per level. One time I tried to make a magic system with fatigue cost instead of skill. I asked couple of people on there opinions. And it was overly complicated. -1 per 5% sounds reasonable, better than 4. But -20/-20/-5 sounds not that good. You can make it n% free and +5% per -1. Or something. Like extra effort for psi powers.
Best system type is easy to learn hard to master.

I hope i made sense at least somewhere:)

The base of the system is actually my old Imbuements Alternative, where you pay 1 FP (QP when using Quintessence) to add an Enhancement to an attack, taking -1 to skill for every +10% worth of Enhancement. There's a further option to avoid paying FP (QP) but doubling the penalty, basically making it -1 to skill for every +5%. You can alternatively opt to pay more FP (QP) to reduce the penalty further - double cost is halved penalty, triple is 1/3, etc. I haven't actually decided how I'll ultimately have it work out, however. Given the investment needed (ignoring the necessary investment in QN - because it has other applications - you use the lowest of base Manashaping skill, an elemental skill if using something other than Force/Neutral, and the actual skill you're using - Innate Attack for ranged strikes, weapon skill for melee strikes, Lockpicking to pick locks, Esoteric Medicine/First Aid/Physician for healing, etc - meaning they all need to be at comparable levels (although I may have the penalty only apply to Manashaping), plus I may call for an Enabling Advantage akin to Magery - maybe even leveled, where how many levels you have limits how large of an Enhancement you can apply), I'm considering having it be -1 per +10% at no cost, then each FP invested reduces the penalty by half (round down) or eliminates -5 worth of the penalty, whichever is a lesser adjustment. This would basically mean 1 FP halves it up to -10 (+100%), 2 FP eliminates it up to -10, and for larger penalties each FP is simply a +5 (but this cannot get effective skill above +0). In addition to this, a mage can learn Techniques to offset the penalty for specific Enhancements, up to enough to negate up to half the penalty (round up). So, with the current numbers, TK at full QN would be at -12 to skill (-1 for the first 25%, -2 for the second 25%, -1 per +5% thereafter). If the character invested into a TK Technique, this could be reduced down to a -6 to skill - and spending 1 QP would make it only a -1 to skill.

For improvising Advantages, such as the TK we're looking at here, it's instead -1 per [1] - because the base ability the Wand gives you is worth [10], so each +10% would add on [1] anyway.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

Just to add another consideration, I believe the rules are that when you want to add an enhancement to your natural body (instead of to an advantage), you simply assume you're adding the enhancement to your ST as though you were pricing it from ST 0, but you only pay the enhancement value.

So, for example, Affects Insubstantial is +20%. If you want for your body to affect insubstantial, if you have ST 10, had you priced it starting for ST 0, that would be 100 points, so +20% to 100 points is 120 points. The difference is 20 points, so Affects Insubstantial as an ability for your natural body is worth 20 points.

TK is sort of like adding Ranged to your ST. Ranged is +40%. Assuming ST 10, that would make it give it a value of [40]. This is not perfect, however. You have a 1/2D range (so maybe 1/2 ST?) and Ranged to ST can't go through objects to affect something inside another object like TK can. So it would cost more than [40].

So I don't have a precise value using this method, but it does show that you're roughly in the same ballpark.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if the value of TK was calculated this way in the first place, where they decided TK ST 10 of an average human would be 50 points (roughly a +50% enhancement to natural ST) and then divided by 10 to get the cost per level. (Edit: on the other hand, I likewise wouldn't be surprised if it was just a happy coincidence)

Looking at it, TK has a Range of 10 yards. I'm not certain if it's meant to take Range penalties, but assuming it isn't, you could make ST function kinda like that with Ranged +40% (giving it Range 10/100) and Jet +0% (changing Range to just 10 but eliminating Range penalties - it functions like a melee attack). If it is, that's either just Ranged +40% (with being restricted to just Range 10 being worth +0% as Reduced Range cannot apply to Max alone) or, with a bit of trickery, Ranged +40% combined with Increased Range 10x (1/2D Only) +15% and Reduced Range x1/10 -30%, for net +25%.

In the first case, that implies the additional benefits of TK are worth +10%. In the latter case, that implies the additional benefits of TK are worth +25%. I'd lean more toward the latter.