Building a cavalryman vs. building a charioteer

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

We have illustrations showing cataphracts using couched lances. They used the same horned saddles that the Romans used.

We were discussing pre-saddle cavalry.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by DanHoward

This was the transitional period between chariot archers and horse archers. That illustration was Assyrian and dates to the 9th C BC

My point was that this indicated the whole "have the archer control the horse" idea appears not to have been as obvious of an option as it is in retrospect, considering the earliest horse archers appear to have been a case of "What if we had a chariot, but without the chariot?" rather than "Duh, just have the archer control the horse, then you only need one of each)." I would expect once they started doing these double-rides it didn't take terribly long for them to figure out this was an option, but it doesn't appear this was the initial intent behind ditching the chariot. At least to me.

Originally Posted by Anthony

We were discussing pre-saddle cavalry.

Half a dozen or so posts ago in that particular quote chain, sure. But at least that part of the conversation had departed from there. To summarize, you suggested the lack of saddles may have been a big part of why cavalry took so long to surpass chariots in use, Phil agreed and listed various saddle and saddle-relevant technologies but also repeated the idea that stirrups were necessary for lance charges, Ulzgoroth brough up cataphracts as an example of lance charges by horsemen without stirrups, Phil responded suggesting cataphracts didn't do lance charges (instead just using their lances as spears), and finally Dan noted the evidence we have for cataphracts using couched lances (for lance charges), which is what you responded to here.

[DanHoward]

Originally Posted by Varyon

My point was that this indicated the whole "have the archer control the horse" idea appears not to have been as obvious of an option as it is in retrospect, considering the earliest horse archers appear to have been a case of "What if we had a chariot, but without the chariot?" rather than "Duh, just have the archer control the horse, then you only need one of each)." I would expect once they started doing these double-rides it didn't take terribly long for them to figure out this was an option, but it doesn't appear this was the initial intent behind ditching the chariot. At least to me.

Yep, agreed.