Malidiction with Emanation: Targeting Question

[Nedorus]

I just came across an interesting question. Maybe I’m overinterpreting things or overlooking stuff.
I am building an ability based on Affliction with Malediction and Emanation (Area Effect of course as well).
Malediction clearly states:

Originally Posted by B106

It can target any victim you can see or otherwise clearly perceive.

Emanation on the other hand states:

Originally Posted by B112

radiates from your body (without affecting you, if the effect is a bad one)

Neither Emanation nor Area Effect state anything about who/what I can target, so the rule from Malediction would still hold imo.

I’ve always played it so that the “target” of an Area Effect can be a point on the ground (or in space etc.) and I need to be able to see / perceive that. This works with RAW for an Affliction as Afflictions are by definition ranged attacks and as such will follow the ranged attack and visibility rules (e.g. B394).

For Maledictions however the point on the ground / in space clearly isn’t the victim.

For Malediction + Emanation I was thinking that I’m the target and I am usually able to “perceive” myself.
However, for a “bad effect” I’m (again) not the victim, so I cannot target myself.

Question
My question is about who/what is the target of such an Malediction+Emanation ability? Who/what do I need to clearly see or perceive?

P.S.:
This entire “targeting” thing came up as a result of insubstantial beings like ghosts, spirits, angelics etc. which could be present but not “perceivable”

[sir_pudding]

You don't roll to hit with an emmanation so it's irrelevant, but effectively the "target" is your hex. You don't need to "clearly see or perceive" anything in an area effect Malediction other than the area itself. For an emmanation, which is zero range and cannot miss or scatter, you dont even need to perceive the area. That clause applies to single target abilities.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

I just came across an interesting question. Maybe I’m overinterpreting things or overlooking stuff.
I am building an ability based on Affliction with Malediction and Emanation (Area Effect of course as well).
Malediction clearly states:


Emanation on the other hand states:


Neither Emanation nor Area Effect state anything about who/what I can target, so the rule from Malediction would still hold imo.

I’ve always played it so that the “target” of an Area Effect can be a point on the ground (or in space etc.) and I need to be able to see / perceive that. This works with RAW for an Affliction as Afflictions are by definition ranged attacks and as such will follow the ranged attack and visibility rules (e.g. B394).

For Maledictions however the point on the ground / in space clearly isn’t the victim.

For Malediction + Emanation I was thinking that I’m the target and I am usually able to “perceive” myself.
However, for a “bad effect” I’m (again) not the victim, so I cannot target myself.

Question
My question is about who/what is the target of such an Malediction+Emanation ability? Who/what do I need to clearly see or perceive?

P.S.:
This entire “targeting” thing came up as a result of insubstantial beings like ghosts, spirits, angelics etc. which could be present but not “perceivable”

You cannot take Emanation as a Limitation on the Enhancement Malediction. First, Emanation itself on p. B112 says it may only be taken in conjunction with the Area Effect Enhancement. Second Malediction itself says on p. B106 "lacks Malf., 1/2D, Max, Acc, RoF, Shots, and Recoil statistics, and cannot have any enhancement or limitation that affects those statistics." while Emanation says that its limitation causes the attack to have no range [1/2D or Max] or Accuracy, which is clearly modifying those statistics. Yes, the effect in both the case of Emanation and Malediction is to remove 1/2D, Max and Acc as effects, but both are affecting those statistics and that is prohibited.

If you want to have both Emanation and Malediction, you need to make them Selective and Switchable, in which case you can have the attack act as a Malediction against targets you can clearly perceive, or as an Emanation out to the limit of Area Effect against any target, perceived or not.

As for who you can target, Malediction requires that you be able to clearly perceive the target, so you can target anything in LOS (line of sight), but if you can't locate, for example, where an invisible target is by being able to see it or see its footprints in snow or the like, you can't target it, even if it would be in LOS otherwise.

On the other hand, unless you have Selectivity, which allows choosing who is affected by your Emanation, everyone (except you) is targeted as long as they are in the area of effect. The exception would be something like an Insubstantial target where the underlying attack would require Affects Insubstantial to affect it, in which case the Emanation would also require Affects Insubstantial to affect it.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

You cannot take Emanation as a Limitation on the Enhancement Malediction. First, Emanation itself on p. B112 says it may only be taken in conjunction with the Area Effect Enhancement. Second Malediction itself says on p. B106 "lacks Malf., 1/2D, Max, Acc, RoF, Shots, and Recoil statistics, and cannot have any enhancement or limitation that affects those statistics." while Emanation says that its limitation causes the attack to have no range [1/2D or Max] or Accuracy, which is clearly modifying those statistics. Yes, the effect in both the case of Emanation and Malediction is to remove 1/2D, Max and Acc as effects, but both are affecting those statistics and that is prohibited.

This is incorrect. An attack with Area Effect, Emanation, and Malediction is one that pulses out from the character and then affects everything the area if they lose the Contest, ignoring DR. This is a totally valid effect to have, and the prohibition against modifying Acc or 1/2D is irrelevant here.

Note that your logic here would also apply to Aura. Which would make Aura of Power not a legal meta-enhancement, yet it is.

If you want to have both Emanation and Malediction, you need to make them Selective and Switchable, in which case you can have the attack act as a Malediction against targets you can clearly perceive, or as an Emanation out to the limit of Area Effect against any target, perceived or not.

If you switch off Malediction, this Affliction would no longer ignore DR, nor will it work as a Contest. It would be a normal Affliction with a HT+DR (Large Area in this case) based roll to resist.

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You don't roll to hit with an emmanation so it's irrelevant, but effectively the "target" is your hex. You don't need to "clearly see or perceive" anything in an area effect Malediction other than the area itself. For an emmanation, which is zero range and cannot miss or scatter, you dont even need to perceive the area. That clause applies to single target abilities.

Thank you for your answer.
I agree that what you say makes sense and it’s how I’ve played it up until now. But I see no evidence in the rules for this. I’m speaking RAW, not RAI here.

Let me first express why I’m asking the question in the first place:

I want to give my player’s character (a Holy Warrior and Priest) an ability to “burn” all supernatural, evil beings around him. As many of these beings in my world would be invisible (in-perceivable) I was wondering how to target them. So I was looking into “targeting”.

So, as you see it’s important to understand who and what can be targeted / affected.

Who or what is the target of an Affliction?
How does this change with Area Effect?
How does Emmanation change this?
How does this change with Malediction?

As the base of my Ability is an Affliction I need to start with that.

Originally Posted by Affliction B35

By default, Affliction is a ranged attack with 1/2D 10, Max 100, Acc 3, RoF 1, Shots N/A, and Recoil 1, although you can apply modifiers to change these statistics (see pp. 101- 116).

Note, that Affliction explicitly doesn’t mention target but victim.

Originally Posted by Affliction B35

If you hit, your victim gets a HT+1 roll to resist.

So there’s clearly a difference between a target (you roll to hit against) and a victim you apply effects to. Put a pin into this for later.

Now I modify this base trait with the Area Effect modifier. My understanding is that all rules for Affliction stay in place except where overruled by the modifier.

Originally Posted by Area Effect B102

Your ability works as an area power instead of affecting a single target. Everything in the area suffers the attack’s [...] effects.

Also it states:

Originally Posted by Area Effect B102

On a miss, use the scatter rules

OK, so far so good. There is still a to hit roll, a target and a victim (or several). Since I use the scatter rules “on a miss” it becomes very clear that the target can also be the victim but isn’t necessarily among the victims. Pin this for later.

Now I add another modifier: Emanation

I can do this because I already have the Area Effect (a prerequisite for Emanation)

Originally Posted by Emanation B112

It means the effect has no range or Accuracy, but radiates from your body

It seems that you infer from this that there is no target, no to-Hit roll, no scatter rules. That’s a lot of inference for that short sentence. I don’t see that at all to be honest. It would suggest that the -20% limitation Emanation somehow includes something like a Cosmic - No Roll Required +100% or some version of it.

I would need a very strong argument (quote, ruling etc.) to accept that line of reasoning.

BTW Emanation already includes a limited form of Selective as it doesn’t affect the character using it if the effect is “a bad one”. It doesn’t exclude him from targeting or from the list of potential victims, just from the effects! Pin this for later.

In conclusion I assume that I still need a target (the character himself?) and still need to roll to hit and the effect CAN scatter.

Now I add Malediction into the fray. This literally changes EVERYTHING!

Originally Posted by Malediction B106

Your attack is not a conventional ranged attack; it works more like a Regular Spell (p. 239).

So all the targeting, area effect and other rules potentially go out the window getting replaced by the rules for Regular Spells except where Malediction states otherwise. The targeting rules for Regular Spells are quite explicit.

Originally Posted by Regular Spells B239

If you cannot touch the subject, apply a skill penalty equal to your distance in yards

This is overruled by the fact that Malediction gives you the option to use Size and
Speed/Range Table or Long-Distance Modifiers for a different cost.

Now it gets interesting as the rules for Regular spells get very specific when it comes to targeting:

Originally Posted by Regular Spells B239

There are two ways to direct such a spell:

• Name a target location [...]
• Name a subject [...]

The example given for the second targeting rule

“George, who I know is around here somewhere.”

clearly doesn’t call for a clear visual / perception of the target.

This is overruled by Malediction’s

“It can target any victim you can see or otherwise clearly perceive.

Pin this for later as well.

The question now is, does the Area Effect modifier on a Malediction imply the rules for Area Spells B239 should be applied?

If so, targeting is

on a surface – floor, ground, etc.

and no mentions of “scatter”. That would solve the question quite easily. Emanation would be targeted on my hex as you suggested with no to-hit roll and no scatter. Case closed…

However I lean towards not applying the Area Spell rules for several reasons:

1. by extension I would also have to use the Melee Spell (B240) rules if I apply the Melee-Modifier. Clearly not intended imo.
2. The “Selective Area” modifier would become almost obsolete as I can easily exclude my friend’s hexes from the effect

   Originally Posted by Area Spells B239

   You may choose to affect only a part of the area, rather than the whole circle, but the cost is still the same.

3. Malediction clearly states what I can target (a victim I can see) and that is in stark contrast to the Area Spell’s “surface – floor, ground, etc.”... unless the floor is the victim here

IF the Area Spell rules are NOT applied but rather the Area Effect modifier rules, targeting for the area would follow the rules as stated by Malediction overruling the Regular Spell’s rules (location or subject) and I would have to target any victim I can see or otherwise clearly perceive. I still need to roll to-hit and I CAN scatter.

Remember our Pins from earlier?
There is clearly a difference between a target and a victim for Afflictions and therefore for Maledictions.
Malediction clearly states that I have to target a victim.
Emanation doesn’t exclude the character using the ability from the list of victims! It clearly only exempts him from the effect of the ability (if they are bad)


Conclusion
I think that an Affliction with Malediction, Area Effect, Emanation would:

1. Target the Character who has the ability.
2. Need’s a to-hit roll
3. CAN scatter if the to-hit roll fails
4. will affect anyone in the area (after potentially scattering) except for the character himself (even after scattering!).

By inference, the character needs to be able to see or otherwise clearly perceive himself but none of the other victims (note how I use victims here, not targets!).

As an additional tactical choice, there could be a way to “shut down” an enemy's emanating malediction by mentally confusing him enough to be unable to perceive “anything” (e.g. sensory deprivation? hallucination?)

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

Conclusion
I think that an Affliction with Malediction, Area Effect, Emanation would:

1. Target the Character who has the ability.
2. Need’s a to-hit roll
3. CAN scatter if the to-hit roll fails
4. will affect anyone in the area (after potentially scattering) except for the character himself (even after scattering!).

Area Effect affects everyone (and everything) within the area, friend or foe, seen or unseen.

Emanation, explained in a different way, means you can't target the Area Effect; the target is always only you, and you become the center of that area, except you yourself are immune to it. So you remove the need for a hit roll (and cannot take any other modifier that affects hit rolls, such as Accuracy). As there is no hit roll, there cannot be any scatter. The radius "emanates" out from you, period.

I think your interpretation of rolling to hit and scatter with Emanation is pushing it, especially in context of what Emanation means. But to counter your point, look up the actual Scatter rules. It says you scatter by a maximum of margin of failure or half the distance to the target. You are the target. Emanation has a distance of 0 (that is rules as written: "... the effect has no range..."). So half of 0 is 0. Therefore, apply hit rolls and scatter all you want, but the scatter distance has to be 0. So it goes nowhere. So why would you even bother making a hit roll.. thus no hit roll is required either.

If you want a hit roll and scatter effect, then do not take Emanation. Instead take Reduced Range to a couple of yards, and make a hit roll normally. However, be warned, with this you are not immune to your own effect and will hit yourself.

If you only want to harm evil spirits (or whatever) and not allies - or not yourself if you are doing the very short ranged version without emanation - then you need a limitation that restricts the effects to only spirits (or whatever), or you need either Selective Effect (in which case you can determine individual by individual who within the area is affected and who is not) or Selective Area (in which case you determine specific hexes within the area that are or are not affected).


All of the above are the Rules as Written. The next bit involves some interpretation of those rules. Selective Effect has an issue with respect to seen/unseen targets within the area, as you have to consciously choose who is affected. So how do you choose - or not choose - someone you can't see. The accepted solution here, and it seems to be how the Aura of Power meta-modifier works, is that when you create your ability with Selective Effect, you must pick one of the following:

- By default it affects everyone in the area and you must consciously choose not to affect them, so you must know (i.e., see) they are there to not affect them; or.
- By default it doesn't affect anyone in the area and you must consciously choose to affect a target, therefore you must know (i.e., see) they are there to affect them.

This isn't an issue with Selective Area, as you pick hex by hex, but if you don't know in what hex some people are located in, you may affect or not affect them unintentionally anyway.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

I want to give my player’s character (a Holy Warrior and Priest) an ability to “burn” all supernatural, evil beings around him. As many of these beings in my world would be invisible (in-perceivable) I was wondering how to target them. So I was looking into “targeting”.

A version of what you want has already been created in GURPS Divine Favor, as the Smite miracle.

FYI, it has, among many other things, Area Effect, Emanation, and "Accessibility, Malign Supernatural Beings Only, -50%."

There is no hit roll or scatter.

[sir_pudding]

If

emanates from your body

is insufficiently strong evidence that the attack emanates from your body, I'm afraid I can't help you.

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by Kallatari

EmanationAs there is no hit roll, there cannot be any scatter. The radius "emanates" out from you, period.

That's exactly the point of contention. I see nothing in the description that would support that.

Originally Posted by Emanation B111

You may only take this limitation in conjunction with Area Effect (p. 102). It means the effect has no range or Accuracy, but radiates from your body (without affecting you, if the effect is a bad one). This is incompatible with Melee Attack and ranged attack modifiers.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

But to counter your point, look up the actual Scatter rules. It says you scatter by a maximum of margin of failure or half the distance to the target. You are the target. Emanation has a distance of 0 (that is rules as written: "... the effect has no range..."). So half of 0 is 0.

OK, I agree that the maximum distance it can scatter is 0, so probably no need to roll for either distance or direction.

But by eliminating the roll to hit you also eliminate a chance for critical failure (critical miss really because it is an attack).

And that is a small but potetially significant ommision.

Originally Posted by Kallatari

A version of what you want has already been created in GURPS Divine Favor, as the Smite miracle.

FYI, it has, among many other things, Area Effect, Emanation, and "Accessibility, Malign Supernatural Beings Only, -50%."

There is no hit roll or scatter.

Ok, I can see how this will confince me.

Whenever possible, the ability should work without any success rolls or FP cost required, to reflect the fact that the miracle is being powered by a god. This often involves the use of Cosmic (No die roll required) (+100%) and Reduced Fatigue Cost.

As Smite doesn't have the Cosmic (No die roll required) (+100%) this would imply that there is no success roll (attack roll to be more precise). This is partucularly interesting as it's built on Innate Attack not an Affliction/Malediction...
As it does have Cosmic, Irresistible Attack, +300% we can assume there's no oversite with the "No roll required"...

That leaves the question wether an Malidiction with Emanation still has / needs a target.

If I cannot (for whatever reason) perceive myself, can I still use this ability? Does it actually target me in the sense that Malediction mantiones?

[Refplace]

Here are some references that should help you better understand Emanation.
GURPS Powers, p. 39 (Affliction - field), p. 54 (Field), p. 61 (Pheromones'), p. 65 (under alternatives lists it as an option for Affliction).
p. 40 under Gasses is I think especially relevant.
A gas that surrounds the attacker has Emanation (-20%) instead. Insidious gases have No Signature (+20%) and possibly Onset (variable). There’s no roll to hit; gas has a chance of affecting everyone exposed to it.

Not it specifically calls out no roll to hit.