Magic on the TL 3 battlefield

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Take Create Fire. cast it on top of a formation of soldiers and the soldiers may only take a few pts of damage before they jump out of the area but you've busted their formation. Add Shape Fire and you can chase them across the battlefield faster than armored infantry can march.

As for cavalry, horses _really_ aren't going to have anything to do with such a combo.

The Opfor can try and match all Create/Shape Fire Mages with extinguis Fire Mages (or maybe Water Jet) but miss one and you've still got big trouble. Fight Fire with Fire and that just means everybody shifts to dispersed troops of the "skirmish" type.

No heavy formations for shock and defense is a pretty big change.

Sure. If you houserule away the -1/three FEET distance mod. That's the elephant on the battlefield, when it comes to the effectiveness of damage spells on the GURPS battlefield. If I'm the OPFOR commander, I am not going to meekly line my army up in one nice, dense, shoulder to shoulder mass, conveniently missile weapon free and standing in ready range to your battlemages. And should something like a wall of fire suddenly spring up as I call the advance? Then I do something intelligent and tell the drummers to call the halt. I bet I can outwait the casters' Fatigue reserves, especially given how hefty the cost is to maintain a large area.

And yeah, the 100-extra-energy bit is bruited about in such discussions pretty often. So here I am, once again, the OPFOR commander, and if I see any group of the enemy clustered together in such a formation, standing still and concentrating? I'm going to be highly motivated to bring any artillery I've got to bear on them. I'm not even so much thinking of the golden bullet of taking the mage out as in having a few onager loads worth of fist sized stones breaking the ritual up. Etc etc etc.

Mages are just way too valuable for things others have mentioned: C3I, healing, weather manipulation, and so on. Hell, I'd rather have an Animal mage more than just about anything else, either to control the bird that's observing the enemy order of battle, or to control the falcon that's going after the enemy Animal mage's bird.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Sure. If you houserule away the -1/three FEET distance mod. d.

That's what the Shape Fire is for. You cast the Create spell next to you and then use the Shape to move it to where you need it faster than any formation of even lightly encumbered infantry. 300 yards per minute in fact.

Then if you start using Ceremonial Magic to get the 100 spectator boost you're talking really big running masses of fire with enough juice for maintaining that you can start them 600 yards or more away from the enemy.

What you need to counter that is probably something like Mongol cavalry that's been trained out of its' fear of fire (men _and_ horses).

It's not unbeatable but it's not going to go away with trivial counters and it probably seriously impairs any ability to fight in formation. That's a big change to the battlefield.

Advanced Mages with the Telecast Spell can effectrively make the -1 per yard go away too.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

That's what the Shape Fire is for. You cast the Create spell next to you and then use the Shape to move it to where you need it faster than any formation of even lightly encumbered infantry. 300 yards per minute in fact ...

Advanced Mages with the Telecast Spell can effectrively make the -1 per yard go away too.

Shape Fire: base cost 2, in addition to the base cost 2 for creating it in the first place. No, you're not going to make a large scale wave of flame dance across the battlefield, especially given that:

(a) In order to do so, you need to open a section of your lines wide enough to allow that mass of flame to get through, unless you:

(b) have your battlemage right in the front line, at which point:

(c) the enemy commander can bloody well see where the center is, and has every incentive to pour missile fire right on that point, never mind:

(d) having his own mage have his already linked/held triple strength Rain spell let loose, at a vastly lower cost than the Fire spell.

Sure: if you have an archmage in your ranks, there's Telecast. I will see your archmage and raise with mine, who'll go with Counterspell.


Yes, yes, I know that it's Awesome and Kewl to have wizards dominate battlefields with some of these spells. With the limitations baked into the system -- and we haven't even touched on that the participants in a ceremonial cast need to be chanting, or holding candles, or doing something that's scarcely military and decidedly noticeable -- a sensible commander just isn't going to go with it.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Yes, yes, I know that it's Awesome and Kewl to have wizards dominate battlefields with some of these spells. t.

It is also apparently Awesome and Kewl to ignore what other people actually say and just belittle their opinions by waving your hands vigorously.

I think we're done here.

[Dalillama]

Note: I'm deliberately ignoring Gate spells, they completely alter basically everything about warfare if they're widespread, and also economics.

Case 1: The battalion mage is rear-echelon support. They can pretty much always rely on 100 participants for ceremonial magic from the 'tail' of the army, and will only see personal combat in the event of rout or utter disaster. Primary spells will be Message, Pathfinder, and assorted Seek spells, to communicate between separate forces and locate the enemy and themselves. They will also ideally know Scryguard to stop the enemy doing that, and maybe Truthsayer for interrogation of high-value captives. Direct damage is unlikely. There's also the stylistic option of having them summon/create big elementals, giant demon things, or masses of the dead risen to fight again. If they're actually directly involved in the fighting, these are actually probably the best uses. Any given mage is likely to only be able to do one of these, but experienced archmages may fill both roles.
Effects on the battlefield: Plans involving coordination between separate forces are much more feasible. Armies will pretty much always know where they are and how to get where they're going. Siege tactics include giant horrifying monsters trying to climb the walls while defending mages seek to destroy/dispel/banish them. Open-field battles also include these. Assuming the sides have roughly equal numbers of mages, the net effect is likely be much higher casualty rates for the infantry, who are always the first to get it in the neck.

Case 2) There are still rear-echelon mages who operate much like the above. A decent-sized army will have one or more mages who purify the drinking water, Shape Earth into latrines and earthworks, and otherwise establish the camp and minimize people dying there (assorted Purify spells, Shape Earth). Regimental combat mages duel the enemy casters with Artillery spells and Force Domes and the assorted Mass Resist spells from Pyramid 3/4 . Monsters and zombies still stalk the battlefield, and Utter Dome and warding spells try to hold them off.
Effects on the battlefield: Sieges involve heavy magic use on both sides. Seige wizard is a separate specialty, and many such specialists are for hire rather than working for one government (viz historical parallels in the early modern)
Field fortifications are erected faster, but aren't as useful due to monsters and magical artillery. This will probably change the way fortifications are built in general (viz gunpowder Artillery irl), but I don't think star forts will answer here. Field battles involve troops clustering near their protective wizards and waiting for a gap in the incoming to drop the Force Dome and charge, hoping to get entangled enough with the enemy that their wizards can't hit you without being hit back. The regimental mage may want some personal combat spells, because the fighting will be coming to them one way or another. All sides are probably fooling with the weather.

Case 3) In addition to the rear-echelon mages (who now include Healers for battlefield casualties and disease cases that get past the sanitation measures, and possibly enough logistics mages to directly Create enough food to keep the army marching far longer and with less collateral damage than historical TL 3 armies, which is a pretty huge thing itself. The same goes for Essential food.). Diviners and scryers are on the General Staff. Over in Intelligence, they have Truthsayers and maybe Mindreaders, so Need to Know is serious business. Squad-level mages will be fond of Bless, (note here that as someone noted in another of these threads, 'mage' may well be synonymous with 'priest', and 'chaplains' is a very different office), and may specialize in. Body Control (to boost comrades' ST/DX), Protection (turning missiles is a favorite), or direct-damage spells operating as heavy-weapons support. There are likely to be experienced mages of utterly terrifying capacity involved in various roles.

Effects on the battlefield: Fortifications and Sieges are wildly different, I'm not sure. Armies march where and when they will, coordinating far-flung elements with ease.
The actual battlefield is rent by rains of lightning and fire, while towering elementals wrestle each other and obliterate unlucky humans who come too close. The dead routinely rise to fight again, and there's no way to know on whose side until they attack. Bands of skirmishers move across this space under cover of Force Domes until they reach each other, then clash in melee, sped and strengthened by magic, while fireballs and ice spears blast holes in their lines. The devastation of foraging armies is gone, replaced by the ruined battlefields of Ypres or the Somme. War is hell, and all the demons are loose on the field.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Case 1: The battalion mage is rear-echelon support.

Alternate battlefield roles for "rare magic mages": Bodyguards/guards for high value targets, Healers, Special Ops (especially for mages with Teleport)

Exact role depends on a given mage's skill set. If magic is rare, mages can't just be trained according to doctrine. Powerful mages might also be more or less left to do their own thing, like Gandalf in LOTR. Weak mages with relatively useless spells might not get any special consideration. ("Cool, you can light fires using magic, but we need spearmen.")

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Case 2) There are still rear-echelon mages who operate much like the above.

At this level, it's possible that there are actual schools of magic and that mages can be trained for a given battlefield role. They take on the roles of other skilled specialists, possibly cooperating with their mundane counterparts. E.g., A Communication & Empathy mage of limited talent gets paired with a mundane signaler or scout.

It's also possible that the army screens for magical aptitude or trains suitable non-mages with basic spells.

For a "common magic" setting, low-level mages are assigned on the squad or platoon level, just like medics or radio operators are in modern armies. They have a small set of whatever spells the military thinks they need to do their jobs.

At this level, there will definitely be training programs for battle mages.

At any level of magic, don't forget that mages are likely to be a) smart/educated, b) literate, which puts them far ahead of your typical TL3 farm boy recruit. That means that it's really up to the commander as to how their talents will be used. ("Sure, you're a great food mage, but for the duration of the war you're an intelligence analyst).

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For a "common magic" setting, low-level mages are assigned on the squad or platoon level, just like medics or radio operators are in modern armies. They have a small set of whatever spells the military thinks they need to do their jobs.

Quite. I've got a "casual military mage" template that presumes no better than Magery 1 and about a 75-80 pt character. Six spells at the max, all in one college. A medic might have Cleansing, Lend Vitality, Stop Bleeding, Minor Healing, Aid and/or Analgesic. A visual mage would have Light, Light Jet, Flash and Night Vision. And so on. Useful specializations, effective at squad and platoon level, and in a number of cases not visually distinct from any other ranker.

[KarlKost]

[QUOTE=Pursuivant;2520876]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Case 1: The battalion mage is rear-echelon support.

Alternate battlefield roles for "rare magic mages": Bodyguards/guards for high value targets, Healers, Special Ops (especially for mages with Teleport)

Exact role depends on a given mage's skill set. If magic is rare, mages can't just be trained according to doctrine. Powerful mages might also be more or less left to do their own thing, like Gandalf in LOTR. Weak mages with relatively useless spells might not get any special consideration. ("Cool, you can light fires using magic, but we need spearmen.")



At this level, it's possible that there are actual schools of magic and that mages can be trained for a given battlefield role. They take on the roles of other skilled specialists, possibly cooperating with their mundane counterparts. E.g., A Communication & Empathy mage of limited talent gets paired with a mundane signaler or scout.

It's also possible that the army screens for magical aptitude or trains suitable non-mages with basic spells.

For a "common magic" setting, low-level mages are assigned on the squad or platoon level, just like medics or radio operators are in modern armies. They have a small set of whatever spells the military thinks they need to do their jobs.

At this level, there will definitely be training programs for battle mages.

At any level of magic, don't forget that mages are likely to be a) smart/educated, b) literate, which puts them far ahead of your typical TL3 farm boy recruit. That means that it's really up to the commander as to how their talents will be used. ("Sure, you're a great food mage, but for the duration of the war you're an intelligence analyst).

This. In the case of very rare Mages, they would just simply be Wildcards. They'd do whatever they wish, occasionally becoming part of the war rooms of kings.

In the case of more common magic, they would become specialists like medics, radio operators and artillery operators of today.

What's more, there would be no Mages learning "useless" spells. The spells Mages would learn would be those dictated by the Battle Mage School. And they would be job-specific. Intelligence officers would get Divination, special forces would get battle spells. No time to waste learning "purify water" for an intelligence officer. Individuals could in theory try to learn on their own, but that would probably be discouraged, access to spell literature would be restricted and controlled, and perhaps even punishable; a logistic mage that is supposed to only be learning purify water and create food could face all kinds of punishments if anyone were to find that he have been secretly learning scrying spells; only the death penalty wouldn't be applied, saved for the most brutal regimes, like the Mongols, Chinese Empire, the Shogunate or the Babylon and the likes.

I would also like to talk about the societal impacts of that, because they bear consequences on how societies would form, but also on how their military would work. We could say that a "typical" TL 3 fantasy society operates within something like Medieval Europe, in which case the ranks from which Battle Mages would come would be from the Nobility and/or the Priesthood. If "Cleric" is something distinct, than Mages would be exclusively part of the Nobility class. This means that Mages would offspring other Mages, but you could have a mixed system with 2 kinds "Nobles" in a mixed Nobility system - one body of Nobles master the "mundane" warfare, and another master Magic. That works better if Magery has some "genetic" component built into it, and this would most likely lead to a caste system, similar to the Brahmins and Warriors at the top on old India.

If Magery is NOT genetic thou, then there's 2 options: the first one comes from study. You go to the "College Arcanum", and you get Magery. In this case, you could have the Nobility holding the administrative power (Kings, Dukes, Barons and so on), which would be the title inherited by the firstborn, while the other children are sent to "school" to become Mages (rather than becoming priests like in medieval Europe).

Then you would have a system pretty similar to medieval Europe, with a Mageocracy organization taking the place of the Catholic Church as the structure of society. Unlike the Church however, such an organization would be Nation specific.

There could also be a Meritocracy like the Chinese Empire, with Magic Schools opened to those who are most talented. In this case, it would be unlikely to exist an hereditary nobility, being replaced by a meritocratic bureocracy (exactly like the Chinese Empire).

The final option is that Magery is random. Individuals are born with it, or manifest it, completely at random. In that case, I believe society would turn completely into a Mageocracy without any other sort of Nobility, where the Mages hold all the political and cultural power, and Magic aptitude is sought out more or less like the Jedi Order of Star Wars is always searching for Force users. Magery would be an instant "lottery ticket" for many families, and I can see Mages being turned into instant spoiled and pumpered a-holes. Tyrannical Magical orders would be the order of the day.

All those considerations will influence how Magic will be used in battle. Tyrannical Mageocracies would probably be less likely to throw Mages in battle, while Nobility systems would be far more likely. Strangely thou, the Caste system would perhaps have the most organized Magic-Military of all, since you would have generations of "Logistic Mages" and "Healer Mages" and "Comm Mages". There would also be families of exclusively Special Forces Mages.

Speaking of which: Special Forces. In case of common Magic, we can expect units of Battle Mages Commandos to be formed with heavily offensive spells, the best powerstones and the best enchantments available - even if enchantments are rare (specially if they are rare). Those groups would be legendary juggernauts, and almost as sought out by assassins as the general staff itself, and would be amongst the most privileged and revered people in any society. They can also form the backbone of the elite guards of kings and other powerful people, or the elite "Pretorian Guard" of Emperors.

Schools of Magic could be closed guarded secrets of individual (HUGE) "families" (or "clans") in the case of a caste system, or each "clan" could be the "keepers" of their own path/book spells. Stealing those secrets could become the roots of many bloody feuds between clans, with many societal pressures like shaming the clan and some such. The Japanese practice of Seppuku comes to mind (suicide before dishonor).

[Anthony]

The range of the hostile observers rule is really important to create/shape fire, because something like a 3 radius is irrelevant, a 50 radius is not (if you then cast control fire you can move your fireball 200+ yards).

[KarlKost]

I would say that any side that has lower magic capabilities than the other would go "scorched earth" and just use meta magic to create no Mana zones. This could become a very well used strategy, with armies depending solely on that, perfecting good ol' sword and board tactics with just a few wizards to make sure the other side can NOT use their wizardry.

This could create a sort of blighted world, and if wars start to ravage the lands for too long, the very land would start to literally die.

But it does make sense thou. If you can't match the enemy in that regard, than you make sure the enemy can't make use of his advantage. This could be a viable strategy for hordes like the Mongols for example, mastering mundane combat but without all those arcane universities to breed tons of battle mages.