Bats, rats, and other nuisances reconsidered again for the n'th time.

[phiwum]

The Bestiary has an entry on rats that explicitly limits rats to two to a hex (as ITL does), but explicitly states that rats may attack from adjacent hexes. I could've sworn that ITL requires rats to attack from the same hex, not adjacent hexes, but I can't seem to find evidence for that. (Oneiros says that the Red Crypt solo adventure explicitly has this restriction, but perhaps this is a hangover from earlier rules.)

In the worst case, then, a person could be attacked by fourteen rats. In practice, at least in my settings, rats will usually be in tight spaces -- but the same cannot be said for wasps, say.

That starts to make the nuisance something to pay attention to. A question remains, however: do rats engage? If so, then a swarm of rats will seriously slow a party. If not, then rats are not so hard to handle. If you win initiative, you can force them to move first. One may expect them to rush to their prey, at which point the party can run right through them, minimizing the number who can attack -- likely to two per person. This depends, of course, on the size of the swarm. It also depends on whether one can step through hexes with one or two nuisance critters (perhaps flying) without being slowed or worrying about tripping.

Up until now, I've chosen to play rats as stacking up to six per hex, able to climb on a person so that while they do not engage, they cannot be outrun -- once they're latched on, so to speak. Moreover, rats in my previous play were never engaged. These were a lot of special rules.

I'm going to try out this new (to me) interpretation with the official stacking rules, attacks from adjacent hexes. I think that I'll try rats not engaging larger figures, though they may be engaged by larger figures. Larger figures may move into or through a hex containing two rats at no penalty.

But I thought that the new material in the Bestiary may lead to new discussions of how to handle these nuisances. That they explicitly can attack from adjacent hexes makes the stacking limit of 2 more reasonable -- and I'm surprised that I don't see anything to the contrary in ITL. But it's also a little odd that rats may attack adjacent hexes while dragonets (or Blood Hawks from OSM) cannot.

I don't know when I'll next have a party hassled by rats or other nuisance critters, but I'll let you know how it goes.

[hcobb]

ITL 100: "Rats may stack at two per hex; ... the first two rat bites each turn don’t count, but the rest do."


Only way to get more than two bites per turn with that stacking limit is to allow attacks into adjacent hexes.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL 100: "Rats may stack at two per hex; ... the first two rat bites each turn don’t count, but the rest do."


Only way to get more than two bites per turn with that stacking limit is to allow attacks into adjacent hexes.

I see now, thanks to a post by Axly, that I've just misread the text on ITL 100 today -- several times. You just missed it too, despite it being the very next sentence after your quoted text.

Originally Posted by ITL 100

If a rat bites you, you take 1 hit. Rat bites are cumulative against armor each turn, and shields don’t count. If you are wearing leather, which takes 2 hits, then the first two rat bites each turn don’t count, but the rest do. A rat must be on the figure’s hex to attack.

Hence, the Bestiary text is inconsistent with the text in ITL. This is, I think, an unacknowledged revision to the rules or, more likely, the bolded text above was meant to be removed when the two-hex stacking limit occurred, but it was not.

(Incidentally, Axly chose to interpret the stacking limitation to apply only outside of HTH and to interpret rats sharing a hex with a figure as being in HTH, so that the inconsistency Henry points out goes away. It seemed a bit complicated to me as I skimmed it today, so apologies to Axly if I misrepresented him.)

[Shostak]

If the rats are in HTH with you, are you in HTH with them--which would mean that you fall to the ground if one of them successfully initiates HTH? That would be a bit hard to swallow unless they rats the size of a medium dog.

I do not like the stacking limit of two rats per hex. Two giant rats, perhaps. But typical rats should be able to swarm up to a many more per hex.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

If the rats are in HTH with you, are you in HTH with them--which would mean that you fall to the ground if one of them successfully initiates HTH? That would be a bit hard to swallow unless they rats the size of a medium dog.

I do not like the stacking limit of two rats per hex. Two giant rats, perhaps. But typical rats should be able to swarm up to a many more per hex.

The HTH solution was due to Axly in the post I linked to. If I recall correctly, Axly suggested that just as one may be in HTH with a standing ogre, a rat can be in HTH with a standing person.

I understand your concern that two per hex is too few, just for the sake of realism[1], but I'm more interested in whether the limitation works for game terms. Rats should be a nuisance, neither so easy that it's not worth the encounter nor so hard that a party of adventurers are likely to lose a member. If the stacking limit of two (with adjacent attacks) works to make an interesting but not deadly encounter, I'll use it.

I've rethought engagement. Earlier today, I said that humanoids should engage rats and I'm okay with that (despite the argument that one can't engage a swarm). I also said that rats can't engage a humanoid, but I believe I'll change that up. Just as it takes two humanoids to engage an ogre or three for an adult dragon, I think I'll say that three rats engage a humanoid. That will reduce the mobility of a character who is being swarmed by rats, but not allow a single rat to engage.

So, here's my next swarm rules.

1. Stacking limit of 2 rats per hex.
2. Rats are engaged in the usual manner.
3. Three rats are required to engage a humanoid.
4. Rats may enter a humanoid's hex. Of course, if the only path to the hex requires becoming engaged, then the rat must stop as soon as engagement begins (though he may shift into the hex next turn).
5. Humanoids may enter a rat's hex using the same rules. Since it takes three rats to engage a humanoid, the humanoid may be able to continue movement after entering a rat-occupied hex.
6. Rats may attack from the same or adjacent hex.

The above applies as well to bats, spiders and wasps, of course.

A big difference between these rules and the more liberal stacking that Shostak suggests is that in a sufficiently narrow (one hex) passage, rats aren't too hard to handle. Even a single character will, if attacked from the front, face only two rats on the first turn. Any survivors can move into his hex and two more show up in front of him. Conceivably, he could face six rats at once, but only if the rats are smart enough to make room for newcomers and if the character is crap at rodent control.

In a wide open area, a person can become quickly overwhelmed with fourteen of the buggers.

(Gratuitous arithmetic:
Suppose that we have a ST 10, DX 10 character in a one-hex wide passage with an endless supply of rats advancing. He will kill, on average, one rat per turn, while each rat will do 1/2 point of damage. He has a 50/50 chance of killing a rat before the rats get to attack.

On the first turn, he will take 3/4 point of damage on average, and there will be one rat in front of him at the end of the turn.
On the second turn, he will take 1 1/4 point of damage on average, and there will be two rats in his hex or in front of his hex at the end of the turn.
After the third turn, he takes 1 3/4 hits on average and again there will be three rats in his hex or in front of his hex at the end of the turn.

In this very simplified analysis, subsequent turns will be just like the third turn. Assuming he's unarmored, he'd be expected to snuff it in the seventh turn. He would have killed six or seven rats, so a mere ten or eleven rats would suffice to do him in, if my very superficial thinking is roughly right.

Of course, this guy is pretty fragile for a PC and he didn't do anything but stand and hack.)

[1] But, realism is already stretched when a bunch of rats attacks a party of humans...

[hcobb]

Note ITL 127: "Similarly, a man beset by rats or spiders in his hex"

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Note ITL 127: "Similarly, a man beset by rats or spiders in his hex"

I'm not sure what you're getting at here. This is the paragraph you mention, with relevant bit bolded.

Originally Posted by ITL 127

The attempt to trample is essentially a “free” attack on any enemy underfoot. A large figure can trample its foes, regardless of what else it is doing, and suffer no DX penalty. (Similarly, a man beset by rats or spiders in his hex may have one DX roll a turn to trample; if he is successful, he kills one of them.)

Yes, a humanoid can trample rats or spiders in his hex or an adjacent hex (ITL 100, "If you are trying to stomp a rat in an adjacent hex,..."). He can't stop bats or wasps as a free action, at least not while they are on the wing.

In fact, bats and wasps are a LOT more dangerous than rats and spiders. Any situation where a party is attacked by 25 vampire bats seems a lot worse than a mere nuisance, since they may be able to ignore engagement by flying overhead (depending on circumstances) and they can only be attacked once per turn at DX -4, generally speaking.

But I feel like I'm missing your point, Henry.

[hcobb]

Note that the human is in HTH, but the giant is using normal attacks and trampling. The same applies for human vs rat.

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Note that the human is in HTH, but the giant is using normal attacks and trampling. The same applies for human vs rat.

Maybe. That's Axly's understanding, I think.

However, it is not suggested by the text in ITL or the Bestiary. In ITL, it merely says that a rat must attack from the same hex, not that it is in HTH when it does so. In the Bestiary, we see that "Rats may 'stack' at two per hex, and may attack from your hex or from adjacent ones," which again doesn't suggest anything about HTH.

If the rats were only allowed to use HTH when fighting from the same hex as the target, then they could only enter a man's hex using the HTH rules, I'd think -- unless the man voluntarily entered the rats' hex. Moreover, the rat would be +4 to be hit[1].

Are these the consequences you see from the supposition that the rat must be in HTH to attack from the same hex?

[1] The discussion of trampling doesn't mention a +4 to trample a (necessarily) prone human. I can't recall whether I usually use that +4 or not. I guess it applies.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by phiwum

Maybe. That's Axly's understanding, I think.

However, it is not suggested by the text in ITL or the Bestiary. In ITL, it merely says that a rat must attack from the same hex, not the it is in HTH when it does so. In the Bestiary, we see that "Rats may 'stack' at two per hex, and may attack from your hex or from adjacent ones," which again doesn't suggest anything about HTH.

If the rats were only allowed to use HTH when fighting from the same hex as the target, then they could only enter a man's hex using the HTH rules, I'd think -- unless the man voluntarily entered the rats' hex. Moreover, the rat would be +4 to be hit[1].

Are these the consequences you see from the supposition that the rat must be in HTH to attack from the same hex?

[1] The discussion of trampling doesn't mention a +4 to trample a (necessarily) prone human. I can't recall whether I usually use that +4 or not. I guess it applies.

Yes, I agree it is my understanding ;-) that rats in human's hex is analogous to humans in a giant's hex.

True that rat and nuisance creatures in HTH with you are not really in HTH, in that they do not get the DX +4. It is simply how they must be to attack. Notice in ITL 100 the paragraph about their DX 10 means just rolling 1 die each for their attacks. So, not only no DX +4, but also no chance at a critical success.

Because it is not really HTH, the person with the rats on him/her is not prone. If they were prone for whatever reason I would be inclined not to give them a stomp/trample.

Regarding how rats enter a hex, there is disagreement here amoungst some of us. I use the HTH rules. I know another GM says he likes them to just let them run onto figures without stopping to be engaged. I think both methods are valid as the rules are not clear. Choose one and stay consistant.

BTW, the rat rules (and spider rules) are and adaptation of the rules to handle spiders from the original Death Test. In DT, the rules are different but have much in common with the ITL small nuisance creature rules. In DT, you can get as many as 12 spiders in your hex (that is all the spiders from the room). So, that is where I extrapolate that while Legacy ITL limits 2 rats per hex, that more are allowed when on a figure. That and HTH rules (which I know is not a perfect fit), also allows for unlimited figures in a HTH hex.

As far as whether Stomping (Trample?) gets a DX +4 with in hex rats, that is a GM call. The write up in the rats section (ITL 100) is not clear, but if you think Stomping is the exact equivalent to Trampling (ITL 126-7), then the figure does not get DX +4 while stomping. Stomping adjacent hex never gets a DX +4, the only question is if in-hex-stomping does.

BTW, to Shostak's point: I also ignore the limit of 2 rats per hex. I think this was a change in Legacy (at least I don't recall it from before), and so I instead limit small nuisance creatures to 5 per hex. I think it is more realistic, and since I do force them to use the HTH initiation, 2 per hex would be too limiting for the rats.