Fencing is just Sword Expertise

[hcobb]

In this variant the knife/sword group gets just two expertises: Dagger and Fencing. The Main Gauche still needs both if you want both the defensive advantage and the HTH advantage.

Fencer is more powerful but less flexible than the other two major expertise groups (axe, polearm) as it includes no thrown weapons. And swords are expensive.

[Steve Plambeck]

I'm very much on the fence about this one (no pun intended).

Between Fencing and Sword Expertise, Two Weapons and then Sword Mastery, separate expertise with daggers, then the main-gauche and it's own sometimes ambiguous or forgettable rules, between all that we have way too many talents and fuzzy borders between them. How did jabbing someone with a straight, pointy blade get so complicated? I'd be tempted to recommend to new players - forget all that and just use an axe!

I too have been very, very close lately to thinking the Fencing talent/skill, and even Two Weapons talent should just get tossed. Fencing swords might and should still have some special characteristics other swords don't have, but taking advantage of those characteristics could just be baked into the other talents. Two Weapons for any particular category of weapons might also be baked in to an expertise talent.

That's what I think on odd numbered days. On even numbered days I can't see dumping a special Fencing skill because it feels so much like it belongs in a fantasy role-playing game. It also defines a type of character, and bristles with romantic overtones.

Even writing my own system from scratch, where I don't have to run into any TFT compatibility issues and build everything to my own liking, I still run into the same complicated interactions between the new sword rules I come up with. I'm still waiting to have an epiphany, but it's been taking years.

[Bill_in_IN]

Fencing has its limitations but for a beginning character its awesome. However, they do hit a limit with respect to weapon damage being limited to sabers. Achieving Fencing Mastery is tough but still worth it in my opinion.

To do the same thing with Sword Expertise, you have to sink lots of IQ to get Two Weapons talent. So, it it is not as versatile for a lower attribute PC. But, when the PC gets above ST 10 they can be a fencer with larger swords. That's when it starts to make a big difference.

I have experimented with both builds. The Fencer can be far more versatile because they have more IQ for other talents. While the two weapons sword experts are less versatile, they end up being great sword fighters that deal out more damage. Both builds have their strengths. A fencer is not just a Sword Expert. They are a Sword Expert with two weapons talent.

I like the granularity between these two character builds. They both work in their own ways.

A good well-rounded adventurer is a build of a Fencer/archer/physicker/tactician.

An effective military type would be the Sword Master with Two Weapons Talent that is a tactician. Leave the physickering to the medics.

[hcobb]

Fencer adds damage per turn by adding DX.

Bill Hook, Human, age 20
ST 10, DX 17, IQ 13, MA 10
Talents include: Acrobatics, Alertness, Courtly Graces, Knife, Master Fencer
Language: Common
Weapons: fine dagger (1d), 2* very fine well balanced sabers (2d+2, +1 DX)
Armor: -3 to be hit

First Shrewd thrust: adjDX 15 for 3d+5 damage, 14.8 DPT
Second Shrewd thrust: adjDX 11 for 3d+5 damage, 9.7 DPT
Total damage per turn: 24.5

Basically slays one and a half foes per turn.

Clay Moore, Human, age 20
ST 12, DX 15, IQ 13, MA 10
Talents include: Alertness, Knife, Shield Expertise, Sword Mastery
Language: Common
Weapons: fine dagger (1d), very fine well-balanced broadsword (2d+4, +1 DX)
Attacks and Damage: Punch (1d-2)
Armor: Small shield stops 2 hits, -3 to be hit

Shrewd blow is 3d+6 at adjDX 12 for 12.2 DPS
So does half the damage of the fencer

[David Bofinger]

The present ACTs, including Fencer, are weapon-specific, generalist in output and dull. They should all go into the bin and be replaced by special abilities which are weapon-independent and output diverse. It isn't worth trying to save Fencer.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by hcobb

In this variant the knife/sword group gets just two expertises: Dagger and Fencing.

I'm not sure I understand but are you proposing to delete the talent that represents characters like e.g. Sir Lancelot? Why would you want to do that?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

The present ACTs, including Fencer, are weapon-specific, generalist in output and dull. They should all go into the bin and be replaced by special abilities which are weapon-independent and output diverse. It isn't worth trying to save Fencer.

That would be my preference. Several more specific and less expensive talents would, to my thinking, be better than the RAW talents that offer a host of benefits. I’d do the same to the UC talents. And, in all of this I’d include banishing the main-gauche and replace it with talent-based abilities.

[David Bofinger]

For comparison, here is a list of weapon-independent output-diverse Advanced Combat Talents. The idea is that each creates a new possible action, so you can buy as many as you like but only use one a turn.

I think you can disagree with everything in this list, but that the core idea of making ACTs be about effects and not weapons is the way we should go. The list is an example of possible implementation.

• Defensive (IQ 11, cost 2) When the character takes a Defend action he may also attack but must roll an extra die to hit. If the character has a large or tower shield then missile attacks from the front must also roll an extra die to hit when he takes the Defend action.
• Shield Wall (IQ 11, cost 1) When a figure adjacent to you is hit, or if a figure is hit by a ranged attack which rolled to miss you during the attack, then if (a) you have a large or tower shield ready, (b) the attack is something that can be affected by a shield, (c) the attacker is in your front and (d) you are at least as close to the attacker as the target is then you may stop 2 hits from that attack.
• Giant Slayer (IQ 10, cost 2, cost 1 with Naturalist). Attacks against a figure of 3*hexes or more receive +1*DX and +1 die damage. Roll one less die when trying to shift away from being overrun by a multi-hex figure or when trying to roll out from under such a figure. Trample attacks roll one more die when trying to hit them.
• Mighty Blow (IQ 9, cost 2) For a penalty of ‑1*DX and*1*fatigue, may make a melee attack a mighty blow. If it hits it causes extra damage equal to the unarmed damage for the weapon’s ST requirement (additional damage minimum is*0), +1 for a one-handed weapon, +2 for a two-handed weapon.
• Vital Point (IQ 11, cost 1 or 2) Allows any of the following special attacks against a humanoid with Physicker or at a cost of 2, or against a non-humanoid with Naturalist or Vet or at a cost of 2: For a penalty of -2*DX may make a melee attack which inflicts an extra 2d-2 damage, or double damage after armour, whichever is less. If you are using the Aimed Shots optional rule then you may make an aimed shot at half the usual DX penalty. If you are not using the Aimed Shots optional rule then you may make an aimed ahot at normal DX penalty.
• Find Gap (IQ 10, cost 2) For a negative DX modifier equal to one-third of an enemy’s hits stopped, an attack can ignore the hits stopped.
• Mighty Blow (IQ 9, cost 2) For a penalty of ‑1*DX and*1*fatigue, may make a melee attack a mighty blow. If it hits it causes extra damage equal to the unarmed damage for the weapon’s ST requirement (additional damage minimum is*0), +1 for a one-handed weapon, +2 for a two-handed weapon.
• Distract (IQ 11, cost 1) Immediately after movement you do something flamboyant (and probably noisy) to attract the attention of a figure you engage (and anyone else paying attention to you). If the figure fails a 3/IQ roll then (a) you may immediately rotate it 60*degrees toward you and (b) for the rest of the turn if the figure attacks someone who isn’t you then the figure rolls one extra die to hit. Subsequent uses of this ability by the same character on the same figure only require 2/IQ.
• Hand-to-Hand (IQ 10, cost 2). When a figure with Hand-to-Hand talent attempts to enter HTH against a figure without Hand-to-Hand talent, instead of just rolling one die as described in ITL*116‑7 the enemy figure rolls twice (rerolling 6s if from behind) and takes the lowest roll. When a figure without Hand-to-Hand talent attempts to enter HTH against a figure with Hand-to-Hand talent, instead of just rolling one die as described in ITL*116‑7 the enemy figure rolls twice (rerolling 6s if from behind) and takes the highest roll. Enemy figures do not receive the +4*DX bonus for the target being in HTH if the target has the Hand-to-Hand talent. A figure with Hand-to-Hand talent does +1 damage in HTH attacks. Hand-to-Hand talent has the same effect on pinning attempts (ITL*117) as a level of Unarmed Combat.
• Subdue (IQ 11, cost 1) When using the Taking Prisoners rules (ITL*126) blows do four fifths damage (round off) instead of half.
• Disarm (IQ 11, cost 1) Against a weapon of the same type, or any weapon requiring the same or less ST as his own, the character may strike to disarm. Announce that the attack is to disarm, and make the regular to-hit roll. On a success, the foe must roll 3/DX (2/DX if the target has Disarm) or drop their weapon.

[Bill_in_IN]

Having recently become used to the structure of Fencing/Fencing Mastery, Weapons Expertise/Mastery, and Unarmed Combats in Legacy TFT, I'm reluctant to make such changes. They do work as they are stated--warts and all. However, I will follow the discussion for these changes.

I have been working on how to allow Unarmed Combat talent abilities be coupled with various weapon talents without destroying the balance of the TFT universe but that is a different topic. It still works with the current weapons talent and weapons expertise/mastery structure. It's basically a write up of how we did it in a Classic TFT days. Up front, it isn't a stacking of talents but how they can complement.

[larsdangly]

My ruling is that Fencing Expertise and Mastery cover all weapon combinations that are classics from the age of cut-and-thrust swordsmanship (rapier and main gauche, case of rapiers, etc.). That provides it a bit more breadth of application that I'd say makes it on par with the other equivalent talents.