Talent for the weak: Cestus

[Axly Suregrip]

I am changing my view on how cesti work:

- Damage in HTH and in melee is always "By ST" +3. Based on the weapons table stating "By ST"

- Pg 113 reference to two attacks is melee only, and not HTH, because it states this is used as in boxing. Boxing is not grappling which is HTH.

- Pg 113 reference to treat it like a main-gauche will be in its use to block damage like a small shield for the cost of DX when using it as an second weapon. That is, as a "left-handed weapon" it gets both the DX -1 and the -1 damage protection.


So, my opinion/answers to your questions are:

1. Will striking with a cestus into an adjacent hex do less damage than a bare handed punch for characters of ST 15 or higher?

- no, since both damage are the same.

2. Does wearing a cestus impose a -1 DX penalty? ("Like a small shield, it carries a -1 DX penalty." ITL 111) What if two are worn?

- yes, but only if it is worn as a second weapon.

3. Does wearing two cesti give a -2 DX penalty and stop two hits?

- no. Only the off-hand cestus gives both the -1 DX and the -1 hits, as per the main-gauche rules on page 111, in the section titled "Left-Hand Weapons."

4. Is there a restriction on which weapons an Expert Cestus user can defend against?

- yes. It has the same limitations as the main-gauche. Pg 111, "main-gauche, acts as a shield to parry 1 hit per attack, from non-missile, one-handed weapons only, from your front hexes." And since pg 113 states "A single cestus is treated exactly like a main-gauche".

5. Does the full Two Weapons talent help with a pair of cesti, or one plus some other weapon?

- Probably. Extra skills should impart an advantage. Exactly how, I'll worry about this when I see someone with both.

6. If a cestus and dagger user gets into HTH must she drop her dagger?

- no. Daggers don't need to be dropped in HTH. She gets to choose which she attacks with each turn, since she only gets one attack in HTH.

[TippetsTX]

I replaced this talent.
https://forums.sjgames.com/showpost....0&postcount=49

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

I am changing my view on how cesti work:

- Damage in HTH and in melee is always "By ST" +3. Based on the weapons table stating "By ST"

We did it that way in our Classic TFT days. ITL says +3 in HTH for a cestus. So using that guideline and the fact that Reptile men get a +2 to Bare Hands damage (BHD) for claws. I'm considering following that lead. The cestus, by it's very nature should be linked to ST based BHD. So, in Melee that would be BHD+2 and in HTH BHD+3. But I'm currently using the +3 BHD and HTH as you stated. Its simple and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe.

Now, add Cestus expertise to bump it to the next level.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

We did it that way in our Classic TFT days. ITL says +3 in HTH for a cestus. So using that guideline and the fact that Reptile men get a +2 to Bare Hands damage (BHD) for claws. I'm considering following that lead. The cestus, by it's very nature should be linked to ST based BHD. So, in Melee that would be BHD+2 and in HTH BHD+3. But I'm currently using the +3 BHD and HTH as you stated. Its simple and it does upset the balance of the TFT universe.

Now, add Cestus expertise to bump it to the next level.

I think that is a good extrapolation: Cestus +2 BHD melee.

The rules say a "single cestus" is like a main-gauche. I take this to mean the off-hand use of a cestus. So, I will apply the DX -1 to any one with one or two cestus (that is, never -2) and it will also carry over to in HTH. Harder to grapple with your hands bound to weights.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

I think that is a good extrapolation: Cestus +2 BHD melee.

The rules say a "single cestus" is like a main-gauche. I take this to mean the off-hand use of a cestus. So, I will apply the DX -1 to any one with one or two cestus (that is, never -2) and it will also carry over to in HTH. Harder to grapple with your hands bound to weights.

Correction of a previous statement:

Its simple and it doesn't upset the balance of the TFT universe.

The rest of your post makes sense as a decent application. However, I have experimented with a cestus wielder on both hands and has two weapons talent. In that case, the two weapons talent application seems to work well. In that case, there is no effective "off-hand" weapon but just the one that attacks second or parries. I treat parrying with a cestus to be the same as parrying with a dagger. It only stops one extra hit instead of two.

Your point about the weight of the cesti is interesting. In our youth, my brother and I would put on pairs of 14 oz. boxing gloves and go at each other. I can say that after three minutes of that, your arms feel like noodles. So, after 12 turns of swinging two cesti, I would impose 1 Fatigue point--2 points after 24 Turns, 3 points after 36 Turns. Most battles don't last that long but it does emulate my personal knowledge.

I have had a very small number of battles last past 12 turns and one that approached 20 turns. These were situations where both parties were aware of each other and were hostile at a greater distance apart.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

In our youth, my brother and I would put on pairs of 14 oz. boxing gloves and go at each other. I can say that after three minutes of that, your arms feel like noodles. So, after 12 turns of swinging two cesti, I would impose 1 Fatigue point--2 points after 24 Turns, 3 points after 36 Turns.

A rapier is 2 oz. heavier than one of those boxing gloves; would you impose the same fatigue on someone wielding one of those?

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

A rapier is 2 oz. heavier than one of those boxing gloves; would you impose the same fatigue on someone wielding one of those?

The timing of this tangent is serendipitous. I got me an idea the other day...
https://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=194816

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

A rapier is 2 oz. heavier than one of those boxing gloves; would you impose the same fatigue on someone wielding one of those?

I was thinking out loud. I probably wouldn't impose such fatigue but wouldn't have to in most cases even if I did due to the battle duration. If the battle were to drag on, fatigue would be a concern for the GM to take into effect. Did you mean 2 lbs. for a rapier? If one has the talent for it, fatigue should probably not be a concern in typical battle scenarios.

If I recall, professional boxers tend to use lighter gloves (<10 oz.). They probably have little to no fatigue imposed by their gloves due to their strength and physical condition.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Did you mean 2 lbs. for a rapier?

Hi, Bill.

No. Rapier is listed as 1 lb (16 oz.) in my copy of ITL, which makes it 2 oz. heavier than the 14 oz. boxing gloves you mentioned (unless the listed weight is for the pair, rather than per glove).

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Your point about the weight of the cesti is interesting.

My point was more that the hands were bound. Cannot hold a weapon so it would be harder to grip someone you are grappling with. Thus the DX penalty should remain.