Epic Talents

[Shostak]

I guess the real issue here is whether “epic” talents emerge as a de facto consequence of possessing certain combinations of RAW talents or if they are new talents predicated on any of the various combinations.

[Steve Plambeck]

That last is interesting and I think I'd prefer that to the "talent package" concept.

Say you could still pick any talents you wanted a la carte from the regular ones available, but there would be a few special or epic talents for which a combination of regular talents was the prerequisite, and you'd get one as an automatic bonus once you had the required combination. These special talents wouldn't be available separately, only as a bonus for amassing the prerequisites combo.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I guess the real issue here is whether “epic” talents emerge as a de facto consequence of possessing certain combinations of RAW talents or if they are new talents predicated on any of the various combinations.

I think the philosophy of TFT is that an epic talent would be a talent, which had as prerequisites one or more less epic talents. You could go another path, but it would be changing the game a lot and might have some unintended consequences.

One aspect of that would be that it might make character generation more of a black art. You know if you get talents A, B and C it comes with some cool advantages. But a new player can't be expected to know all these tricks. So the learning curve becomes harder, and new players maybe have a less enjoyable experience.

Simplicity of structure is one of TFT's great advantages. It's easy for a house rule to damage it.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

One aspect of that would be that it might make character generation more of a black art. You know if you get talents A, B and C it comes with some cool advantages. But a new player can't be expected to know all these tricks. So the learning curve becomes harder, and new players maybe have a less enjoyable experience.

TFT character generation is already a black art when using RAW. Those who want certain advanced characters are severely punished for not creating them as starting characters with builds optimized for the goal.

[TippetsTX]

I prefer "an exercise in discovering creative but reasonable complimentary skill capabilities" over "black arts". It's something I try to encourage during play.

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Shostak

TFT character generation is already a black art when using RAW. Those who want certain advanced characters are severely punished for not creating them as starting characters with builds optimized for the goal.

Yes, it's a problem. But two points:

1. That's not a character generation problem, or a character description problem, but a broken experience system.
2. Just because we have a problem is no reason to introduce another. We should try to make it easier, not let it drift in a way that makes it more difficult.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Yes, it's a problem. But two points:

1. That's not a character generation problem, or a character description problem, but a broken experience system.....

But it is both a character progression rules problem and an XP system problem. We need higher IQ to let us have more talents and spells not just once at the creation point, but also beyond that point; and we need a much gentler XP cost curve for increasing attributes. Attribute increase costs were even too expensive under Classic ITL, but under Legacy they have become draconian.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck

But it is both a character progression rules problem and an XP system problem. We need higher IQ to let us have more talents and spells not just once at the creation point, but also beyond that point; and we need a much gentler XP cost curve for increasing attributes. Attribute increase costs were even too expensive under Classic ITL, but under Legacy they have become draconian.

I was OK with the Classic XP to Attribute cost. Adding the Legacy option of spending XP on talents/spells mitigated the old 'Conan the Librarian' effect required to obtain more of them.

The current XP to Attribute cost chart is draconian, stifling, and a definite 'fun police' feature.

While I considered simply using the Classic cost chart, I was concerned about character compatibility between different games and GMs. In other words, could a PC in my game be taken as is and played in the game of another GM that more closely follows ITL RAW. So, I came up with a compromise. The Legacy chart to 38 points (1,000 XP) is used per RAW. after that, the XP goes up by 300 per attribute. So, the 39th point costs 1300 instead of 2,000 XP, 40th costs 1600 instead of 4,000 XP.

This is still a tough scale but the prospect of getting a character into the 40-45 point range is not impossible. The characters in my game will be compatible with most RAW GMs up to 38 points. After that, it's the GM's call if a 39+ point PC from my game can go into their game.

If I had my druthers, I would still use the old Classic chart. But, silly me, I was concerned about compatibility.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Adding the Legacy option of spending XP on talents/spells mitigated the old 'Conan the Librarian' effect required to obtain more of them.

And there's no reason for not having both: a talent/spell point increase free with an IQ increase, and a talent/spell point also available as a separate purchase at a lower XP cost than an attribute.

Then the character that wants a talent/spell at or below their current IQ gets it cheaply, but the character that wants a talent/spell above their current IQ, while still spending more, doesn't have to pay twice (once for the IQ increase and then again afterwards for the talent/spell) which is not only way too expensive but takes infernally long.

And a figure wouldn't be as locked-in to the IQ they were created with as they are now.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

If I had my druthers, I would still use the old Classic chart. But, silly me, I was concerned about compatibility.

As long as you are using the same attributes, compatibility shouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't care if someone came into one of my games using a different XP scale... although mine is actually more generous than most so they might get a bump. ;)