More Gun Help Please? The H&K P7M13

[HANS]

Originally Posted by War_lord

While you're here, incidentally, I was wondering if you could come down on whether the Beretta "80 Series" is bulk -2 or -1?

I'm leaning towards -2; where the P7M8 is really Bulk -1.5 (rounded down as explained above), the Beretta Mod 81 and 84 are more like -1.6 or even 1.7 (rounded to -2). They are smaller than the Mod 90-series, but that is a big pistol. The Mod 82, 85, 86 single-stacks may be -1.5, but I think I'd still round up. Admittedly, I have very little hands-on experience with any of those, I only shot the Mod 84 one time.

Cheers

HANS

[HANS]

Originally Posted by War_lord

It seems to stem from the same sort of fact sheet thinking that lead to High-Tech declaring "Safe-Action" (Glock's marketing term for the trigger dingus on striker guns) pistols "almost impossible to accidently discharge".

It very much is not impossible to accidently discharge, as evidenced by the term "Glock leg" and the fact that the NYPD had to put stupidly heavy triggers on theirs because cops who either had no previous gun experience or only with Revolvers kept accidently shootings suspects/their wives/their ceiling/themselves. Now, were they also neglecting basic safety at the time? Yes. But police handguns are by their nature issued to people with limited experience and training time who carry them way way way more than they fire them.

Meh. As the owner of three Glocks (17, 19, 22) and a keen observant of police shootings as part of my decades-long, ongoing research on officially-issue firearms and criminal use of guns, I stand by what I wrote. The safe-action is safe. It protects against accidents (ie, dropping the thing and fluke incidents). It doesn't protect against negligence or stupidity (ie, finger on the trigger).

Cheers

HANS

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

What HT does say about the Tokarev was that it might fire if dropped or hit sharply. It did not say that it was "quickly" withdrawn after WWII. It's dates were 1936 to 1954. The pistols weren't junked then. There were a bunch of them in the Vietnam War area and it was a particularly prized G.I. trophy.

The remarkably long service life of Soviet small arms is due to the Soviet/Russian doctrine of, "No weapon is obsolete as long as you have the warehouse space for it." That's why during the current Russia-Ukraine war you saw Ukrainians using Maxim guns and Russian conscripts armed with Moisin-Nagant rifles in 2022 and why loads of Soviet WW2-era gear was dished out as military aid during the early years of the Cold War.

[War_lord]

Originally Posted by HANS

Meh. As the owner of three Glocks (17, 19, 22) and a keen observant of police shootings as part of my decades-long, ongoing research on officially-issue firearms and criminal use of guns, I stand by what I wrote. The safe-action is safe. It protects against accidents (ie, dropping the thing and fluke incidents). It doesn't protect against negligence or stupidity (ie, finger on the trigger).

Cheers

HANS

It's drop safe. A Series 80 Colt Government is also drop safe. No one suggests carrying one of those hammer back safety off is advisable.

[clu2415]

As the owner of a P7, I want to chime in on the experience of handling the pistol. It’s most likely below the resolution of GURPS, but the balance is so much nicer than a standard pistol. Because of the gas-delayed action, the slide weighs next to nothing. Ordinary pistols have a fairly beefy slide, so they’re top-heavy, whereas the P7’s mass is centered on the grip, so it takes noticeably less effort to keep it pointed the right direction. This also reduces muzzle flip since there’s less reciprocating mass. It’s really a pleasure to shoot and I am infinitely grateful that I got to hang onto this pistol after my dad passed.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by War_lord

It's drop safe. A Series 80 Colt Government is also drop safe. No one suggests carrying one of those hammer back safety off is advisable.

It seems like the practical shooters on this forum should come up with a list of cruelly inventive ways that a gun can fail on a roll of 17-18 and ways that inexperienced shooters can screw up. For TL8 guns, it seems than most misfires are actually "forgot to release/accidentally engaged the safety."

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

It seems like the practical shooters on this forum should come up with a list of cruelly inventive ways that a gun can fail on a roll of 17-18 and ways that inexperienced shooters can screw up. For TL8 guns, it seems than most misfires are actually "forgot to release/accidentally engaged the safety."

If I understand correctly, most Glock handguns do not have a safety catch in the traditional sense, ie. a lever such that when it is in the SAFE position the gun will not fire when the trigger is pulled or the hammer released. Instead, they have a modified trigger system and some internal mechanisms intended to ensure that the gun only fires when a finger pulls the trigger.

"Put a finger on the trigger at the wrong time" is a very common cause of negligent discharges, but firearms designers and users go back and forth on whether a gun should have a physical mechanism which can prevent it from firing if the trigger is pulled or the hammer released (eg. flintlocks had a half cock). I am not a handgun shooter so my opinion would not be helpful.