House Rules for Spell Casters

[DAT]

Was thinking of implementing a house rule for spell casters, and am interested in folks thoughts.

House Rule:
Mage points for casting spells is equal to a multiplier, based on Magery level, times FP.

Magery Level Multipliers
Non. 1/10
0. 1/2
1. 1
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5
6. 6

Was thinking of not giving a cost reduction for skill, but I am not decided.

For different mana levels (none,very low, low,normal,high, very high) was thinking of applying additional multipliers.

Mana Level. Multiplier
None. 0
Very Low. 0.25
Low. 0.75
Normal. 1
High. 1.5
Very High. 2+


What are folk’s thoughts on the idea and on the multipliers?
-DAT

[mlangsdorf]

What are "mage points"? It's not a term that appears in Adventurers or Spells AFAICT. Spells have an energy cost (Spells p 9) that can be paid from Fatigue Points, Energy Reserves, Power Items, or Hit Points but I don't think that's what you mean.

I'm generally in favor of removing the energy cost reduction for high skill, because it's too easy to make an IQ 16, Magery 6 character who casts 5-6 significant spells and maintains them forever for free. Having the entire delving band capable of Walking on Air, Resisting Fire, seeing with Dark Vision, moving at +3 with Haste, being immune to most ranged attacks, or many other things the band needs on a semi-regular and continuous basis makes the wizard way too valuable.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

What are "mage points"? It's not a term that appears in Adventurers or Spells AFAICT. Spells have an energy cost (Spells p 9) that can be paid from Fatigue Points, Energy Reserves, Power Items, or Hit Points but I don't think that's what you mean.

I'm generally in favor of removing the energy cost reduction for high skill, because it's too easy to make an IQ 16, Magery 6 character who casts 5-6 significant spells and maintains them forever for free. Having the entire delving band capable of Walking on Air, Resisting Fire, seeing with Dark Vision, moving at +3 with Haste, being immune to most ranged attacks, or many other things the band needs on a semi-regular and continuous basis makes the wizard way too valuable.

OTOH, that's a lot of spells being maintained at -1 per spell to other casting, and while that doesn't affect the cost of spells, it does make casting lots of buffs on a whole party prone to failures, wasting time and likely energy (as many of the spells will be free to maintain but not to cast), and inviting critical failures.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by DAT

Was thinking of implementing a house rule for spell casters, and am interested in folks thoughts.

House Rule:
Mage points for casting spells is equal to a multiplier, based on Magery level, times FP.

Magery Level Multipliers
Non. 1/10
0. 1/2
1. 1
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5
6. 6

Was thinking of not giving a cost reduction for skill, but I am not decided.

For different mana levels (none,very low, low,normal,high, very high) was thinking of applying additional multipliers.

Mana Level. Multiplier
None. 0
Very Low. 0.25
Low. 0.75
Normal. 1
High. 1.5
Very High. 2+


What are folk’s thoughts on the idea and on the multipliers?
-DAT

Wait, what? So the amount of energy they have will vary when they cross a mana border? That's clunky. Dabblers (Magery 0) will have virtually no fatigue to cast spells on top of their lousy skill, so not much fun.

So what is your intention here? The first makes mages much more powerful, giving upwards of 50+ more energy; the second makes them much less, forbidding all-day buff spells.

I don't think they accomplish anything I would want, but what do you want?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

What are "mage points"? It's not a term that appears in Adventurers or Spells AFAICT. Spells have an energy cost (Spells p 9) that can be paid from Fatigue Points, Energy Reserves, Power Items, or Hit Points but I don't think that's what you mean.

I'm generally in favor of removing the energy cost reduction for high skill, because it's too easy to make an IQ 16, Magery 6 character who casts 5-6 significant spells and maintains them forever for free. Having the entire delving band capable of Walking on Air, Resisting Fire, seeing with Dark Vision, moving at +3 with Haste, being immune to most ranged attacks, or many other things the band needs on a semi-regular and continuous basis makes the wizard way too valuable.

For about the same points, a knight can do 4d+ cutting 4 times per turn. And that's a conservative estimate. If you do that, they need something back. My group's Cleric can do the same thing but it's not really an issue. Know their buffs. He can't do them all at once. Last session they were fighting in a pool of acid. In the dark. Movement isn't usually that important unless they are fleeing. If that's his contribution, he's not doing much offensively.

[DAT]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

What are "mage points"? It's not a term that appears in Adventurers or Spells AFAICT. Spells have an energy cost (Spells p 9) that can be paid from Fatigue Points, Energy Reserves, Power Items, or Hit Points but I don't think that's what you mean.

Sorry, my short hand. I am suggesting "Mage Points" or "Mana Points" as the points available to pay the energy cost to cast a spell. And the "Mage Points" or "Mana Points" available to a caster as the caster's Fatigue Points, Energy Reserves, Power Items, or Hit Points times the multiplier based on their Magery, Power Investiture, or Bardic Talent.

So for an example, a Mage character with Magery 3 and 12 Fatigue Points, would have 36 Mage Points to pay the Energy Cost for spells.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I'm generally in favor of removing the energy cost reduction for high skill, because it's too easy to make an IQ 16, Magery 6 character who casts 5-6 significant spells and maintains them forever for free.

I haven't really run into that problem. I normally see the spell casters as undervalued, especially in combat.

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Having the entire delving band capable of Walking on Air, Resisting Fire, seeing with Dark Vision, moving at +3 with Haste, being immune to most ranged attacks, or many other things the band needs on a semi-regular and continuous basis makes the wizard way too valuable.

Those 5 spells you list would cost like 21 points per party member (assuming no cost reduction for skill level), and the active spell penalty would be pretty stiff for the third+ party member. I wouldn't see this as an issue. But have you run into some like this in actual play?

[DAT]

Originally Posted by corwyn

Wait, what? So the amount of energy they have will vary when they cross a mana border? That's clunky. Dabblers (Magery 0) will have virtually no fatigue to cast spells on top of their lousy skill, so not much fun.

I haven't had many Dabblers in my games to see.

But haven't noticed the effect being clunky. Players just track their base points and apply multipliers to determine their pool to cast from.

Originally Posted by corwyn

So what is your intention here? The first makes mages much more powerful, giving upwards of 50+ more energy; the second makes them much less, forbidding all-day buff spells.

Good question. I notice in my games the players running caster characters getting a little frustrated. Even an invoker build wizard can't keep up with a knight for damage per turn, for more than a few seconds before becoming exhausted, and then they need to rest for an hour while the other party members are ready to head to the next room. In a non-combat situation, the caster might have a great spell to buff the party (e.g., Dark Vision) but can only cast in on a couple party members before exhausting their FPs. So the first idea was to give the casters a larger mana reserve so they could accomplish more. The second idea was how to rain it in if I gave the players too much power.

Originally Posted by corwyn

I don't think they accomplish anything I would want, but what do you want?

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by DAT

I haven't had many Dabblers in my games to see.

But haven't noticed the effect being clunky. Players just track their base points and apply multipliers to determine their pool to cast from.


Good question. I notice in my games the players running caster characters getting a little frustrated. Even an invoker build wizard can't keep up with a knight for damage per turn, for more than a few seconds before becoming exhausted, and then they need to rest for an hour while the other party members are ready to head to the next room. In a non-combat situation, the caster might have a great spell to buff the party (e.g., Dark Vision) but can only cast in on a couple party members before exhausting their FPs. So the first idea was to give the casters a larger mana reserve so they could accomplish more. The second idea was how to rain it in if I gave the players too much power.

Invoker? You mean missile spellcasters? This isn't D&D. Knights are the primary single target damage dealers - that's intentional. Well, them and Swashbucklers and Scouts attacking eye sockets. Wizards can turn invisible, intangible, stun, entomb, create barriers, cause blindness, etc. You want them to compete for primary damage dealer as well? BTW, that is what your rule will do. And the Knight will wonder what his role is; to keep the beer cold? No, wizard's are better at that, too. Oh, and now he will take an hour to recover.

Missile spells are inefficient damage dealers. They are slow and expensive. Delvers to Grow has an option to let casters fire missile spells for free but it's expensive as well.

Wizards are really good support - I spend most turns using Stun to let our Barbarian do 2x 4d cutting per turn. Or Great Haste so he can double that and a little bit more. Levitate the big bad melee only villain 6 inches off the ground. Now he has no offence with penalties to defend. Spasm makes him drop a weapon.

If you want to do damage, do stuff the others can't. Facing a 15 or 20 DR giant? Hit him with Dehydrate or Death Touch.

If your wizard takes an hour to recover his fatigue, he's built wrong. Recover Energy -15 allows 1/ 5 minutes; -20, every 2 minutes. An energy reserve equal to Fat doubles his pool and that rec rate. Oh yeah, ER is king.

If you want to do damage play a knight, Barbarian Scout or Swashbuckler. If you want to do "Everything else" play a caster.

[DAT]

Originally Posted by corwyn

Invoker? You mean missile spellcasters? This isn't D&D. ...

Term Invoker is not unique to D&D.

See Delvers to Grow, page 29.
"Invoker. Your specialty is combat magic. ..."

Originally Posted by corwyn

... Knights are the primary single target damage dealers - that's intentional. Well, them and Swashbucklers and Scouts attacking eye sockets. ...

No disagreement.

Originally Posted by corwyn

... Wizards can turn invisible, intangible, stun, entomb, create barriers, cause blindness, etc. ...

They can if they know/have the spell for invisibility, etc.

Originally Posted by corwyn

... You want them to compete for primary damage dealer as well? BTW, that is what your rule will do. And the Knight will wonder what his role is; to keep the beer cold? No, wizard's are better at that, too. Oh, and now he will take an hour to recover.

No, I don't want anything other than the Players to be able to play the character concept they want.

And unless I have the math wrong, the Knight is still going to be able to do more damage. But this house rule would allow the Wizard to be able to do some significant damage, get a large spell off, and still have full move, and the Cleric will be able to buff (with a significant buff spell) more than one other PC, heal more than one PC, and still have full move.

Originally Posted by corwyn

Missile spells are inefficient damage dealers. They are slow and expensive. Delvers to Grow has an option to let casters fire missile spells for free but it's expensive as well.

Don't think anything is "for free", but better chances to hit (Heroic Spellcaster) and more damage (Weapon Master (Missile Spells)).

Originally Posted by corwyn

Wizards are really good support - I spend most turns using Stun to let our Barbarian do 2x 4d cutting per turn. Or Great Haste so he can double that and a little bit more. Levitate the big bad melee only villain 6 inches off the ground. Now he has no offence with penalties to defend. Spasm makes him drop a weapon.

If you want to do damage, do stuff the others can't. Facing a 15 or 20 DR giant? Hit him with Dehydrate or Death Touch.

If your wizard takes an hour to recover his fatigue, he's built wrong. Recover Energy -15 allows 1/ 5 minutes; -20, every 2 minutes. An energy reserve equal to Fat doubles his pool and that rec rate. Oh yeah, ER is king.

If you want to do damage play a knight, Barbarian Scout or Swashbuckler. If you want to do "Everything else" play a caster.

So to summarize, you don't like the proposed house rule/don't think it is needed.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by DAT

Term Invoker is not unique to D&D.

See Delvers to Grow, page 29.
"Invoker. Your specialty is combat magic. ..."

Sorry, forgot about that.

.


They can if they know/have the spell for invisibility, etc.

I guess it won't be a problem if they don't take any of the spells that create problem when the casters have 60 mana.

Don't think anything is "for free", but better chances to hit (Heroic Spellcaster) and more damage (Weapon Master (Missile Spells)).

Heroic Archer gives up to +6 to skill. It also allows casting and attacking with the same maneuver, so free attack.

So to summarize, you don't like the proposed house rule/don't think it is needed.

Heh, I guess so. It's effectively giving those max casters an energy reserve of 50 for free. Bottom line is you know your players better than I do; if your non-casters are fine with it, it'll be okay.