Collisions

[SCUBA Hero]

So I understand that in CW6E the car is first moved forward and if it touches something then a collision occurs before the car turns.

And it got me wondering - was this the case in earlier CW editions?

I'm looking at CW4E, the 64 page booklet.

P11 - Bend, "The vehicle moves 1" forward, and then angles to one side" - using the same logic as 6E, this would result in a collision before the turn.

P11 - Turning Key, "To make a maneuver, place the key next to the counter at the point that corresponds to the desired maneuver. Then move the vehicle along the edge of the turning key." That changes the vehicle's path vs. the above path.

So since the paths are different, that argues for the final car position determining a collision. But I don't see definitive language either way.

Is there an official ruling?

[swordtart]

Normally it is the final position of the counter that determines if the collision occurs.

The turning key vs the old method you mention create marginally different paths and as those paths are an artifact of the movement mechanics rather than a representation of how the car would "really" move. As cars are 4 wheel steer there is no "correct" path between the start end end position.

The rules also allowed smaller vehicles to move through gaps that the counter can't. In effect you ignore the boundary of the counter if it makes sense so even if the counter touches a wall, you might not collide with it. Players are asked to use common sense.

Compacts probably occupy about 20% of the counter, bikes more but only because the counter is half the size. Pedestrians only occupied one half of the counter, the other half was just a convenience to allow you to pick it up more easily.

CW 5th actually used different sized counters for the different body types. It works OK as you are using the turning key.

Of course if you really want to bake your noodle, try and see if you can make sense of how a 40ft bus moves. As you move based on the front inch, the back end slews about something fierce. As the rules do not say anything about the path the vehicle takes to it's final position you can assume the path is irrelevant and only consider the final position.

If you assume that a pivoting vehicle follows the path of the counter then a 40ft bus pivoting 180 degrees means the front of the 2" bus counter moves through an arc 2" in radius (which equates to over 6" distance) in addition to the initial 1/4". If it drove straight at the same speed it would move only 1/2". If you just consider the vector movement it is much less (but still lots more than 1/2").

Basically CW doesn't work like real life. You just have to accept that, stop trying to interpret what the rules "mean" and just focus on what they say (which is a whole other box of frogs).

All this presumes you are playing CW as a game. Doubtless some smart Alec in a tournament tried to take advantage of the rules and someone as king for the day felt the need to impose their view of the world rather than just laugh at the pointless cheat / clever implementer.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by swordtart

Compacts probably occupy about 20% of the counter, bikes more but only because the counter is half the size. Pedestrians only occupied one half of the counter, the other half was just a convenience to allow you to pick it up more easily.

Somewhere (can't recall where), there's a line which says "a cycle can fit down a [1/4"-wide] alley; a car can't".

As to collisions: The rules were a little vague -- not accounting for the map-space the car had to pass through in order to get to its "final position" led to some goofy situations involving dropped weapons, obstacles, walls, and such.

Originally Posted by swordtart

Of course if you really want to bake your noodle, try and see if you can make sense of how a 40ft bus moves. As you move based on the front inch, the back end slews about something fierce. As the rules do not say anything about the path the vehicle takes to it's final position you can assume the path is irrelevant and only consider the final position.

In my "_CW_ Repaired" notes: I have longer-than-1" vehicles being "steered" from the *rearmost* 1" of the counter; it's a tad less goofy than "the Tail Of Doom" one gets with using the foremost 1".

Originally Posted by swordtart

All this presumes you are playing CW as a game. Doubtless some smart Alec in a tournament tried to take advantage of the rules and someone as king for the day felt the need to impose their view of the world rather than just laugh at the pointless cheat / clever implementer.

Do. Not. Get. Me. Started. (When one has in one's group a player known as "The Weasel", well, you figure it out....)

[SCUBA Hero]

Originally Posted by swordtart

Normally it is the final position of the counter that determines if the collision occurs.

That's how I always played it. But going back through the 4e booklet, I don't see it specifically mentioned. As 43Supporter says, the rules were a little vague.

Originally Posted by swordtart

Basically CW doesn't work like real life. You just have to accept that, stop trying to interpret what the rules "mean" and just focus on what they say (which is a whole other box of frogs).

Yeah. The problem is when the rules are vague.

Which is why I asked in the original post if there's an official ruling.

[43Supporter]

Originally Posted by SCUBA Hero

Which is why I asked in the original post if there's an official ruling.

To which this grognard answers: "*WHICH* Official Ruling? .:P

One of my long-term projects: Going back through _ADQ_, and showing what was Official "four-dimensionally" -- there are instances where one Line Editor would say one thing; then another would come along, and say something else; etc. It became Annoying fast.

[swordtart]

I did trawl through ADQ&A as I thought I remembered a conversation about it but couldn't find anything explicit. It may have been a non-official conversation (or a pseudo-official one in one of the tournament rules sets CWRQ4.6 has some words on it, but I am not convinced that it is canon).

Collisions have also been revised a few times e.g. in Third Edition the final position of vehicles after some collisions was determined by dropping the counters from 3" above the table. Even if you find an explicit statement there is no guarantee that the statement was not countermanded in later editions.

Of course this question is less about collisions than about movement (since it is only by movement that counters can come into contact).

In Third Edition the BEND was a specific D3 manoeuvre. The BEND explicitly says "The vehicles goes from Position A... directly to position B. This is implicitly stating that there is no "intermediate" position. The SWERVE does mention moving forward first and pivoting one square about a rear corner, but this is a function of moving counters on grid maps without the aid of a protractor (or turning key which was introduced later).

Once the turning key was brought in to core using the grid fell into obeyance (as you could rarely stay parallel to a grid line for any length of time). The rules for moving without the turning key were kept in (almost) but actually make no sense shorn of the original grid references. If you can measure 15 degrees to make it match the image (in say compendium 2.5) then moving it an inch forward first would make it difficult to measure the angle.

The only explicit instruction in the rules is "the referee should use common sense when determining whether a collision has occurred".

As a referee my common sense tells me that as trying to use the intermediate position of the vehicle results in an indeterminant mess but the final position is unequivocal then the only sane route is to use the final position.

I have no experience of any other interpretation being used.

[kjamma4]

Originally Posted by 43Supporter

Somewhere (can't recall where), there's a line which says "a cycle can fit down a [1/4"-wide] alley; a car can't".

I think it dates to the original rules. This is from CW Classic:

"Even though all Car Wars vehicle counters are a minimum 1/2” wide (7 1/2 feet in game scale), the referee should use common sense when determining
whether a collision has occurred. A motorcycle can squeeze into tighter spots than a truck, even though the counters are the same width. If a player wants to take his motorcycle down a four-foot-wide alley, let him. The driver of a van can’t do it."

I don't recall if four wheel steer was canon but it did appear in a State of the Art article.