Priests, clerics and Deity

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by timm meyers

The generic insertion of God(s) just adds another layer to the fantasy setting and thus more choice and specialization to PC builds. ie; the priest who fights undead is great in the graveyard but contributes much less in all other "normal" scenarios. Just like the power thief is great at sneaking and burglary but nigh worthless in combating orcs.

I think the greatest cleric type PC is one who roleplays the heck out of their religion. Adheres fanatically to their own well-defined beliefs and tenants. A true believer like this will require the GM and other players to decide at some point whether the God is real or not. A good player will certainly convince the GM (true god of the adventure universe) to reward or punish with possible unique abilities, spells, interventions.

Shostak did just that with his cleric wizard. Lots of fun.

[Drakenbow]

I tend not to be a fan of putting religion in games. People tend to falsely stereo type religions. But hey, I guess it's their campaign.

For me it's better to use a total fantasy creation of dieties, but the use of the priest is strictly about knowledge of the religion which would help in campaigns. The players find an ancient temple dedicated to XXXX, who has the talent? "Roll please to see if you understand the use of the imagery on the temple walls."

Succeeds. "You can tell these are warnings that an evil power is contained in a vessel"

On failure "There some kind of power in the vessel."

Not having religion "That looks like a pure gold urn! You could get a lot of money for it."

[phiwum]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I like the introduction of religion. However, I would advise that a diversity of religious belief is going to make a more interesting game world than a Good/Evil binary dominated by a few competing religions.

The Good/Evil binary itself is not satisfactory, since it lacks any subtlety. Consider the possibility that most "evil" people probably consider their actions noble and working toward "good". So, I'm not really interested in spells like Detect Evil or "Destroy Evil.

I also find the Hero/Wizard binary arbitrary and decidedly not fun.

I tend to agree. There are a few folk in my world who might count as evil. There are a few who are pretty darned good, probably more of them than the evil camp. But most people are good in some ways and bad in others. I'll leave the sacrifices to evil gods mostly for the humanoids who are still called monsters (gnolls and the like).

Hmm... Maybe it's time to think about how to humanize the gnolls so that my players don't feel so great killing them willy-nilly. And then, when they've suffered the indecision that comes with moral quandaries, perhaps a gnollish TPK.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

For me it's better to use a total fantasy creation of dieties

My favorite fantasy deity is Issek of the Jug from Lean Times in Lankhmar.

[hcobb]

In TFT the last thing the wizards want to do is chase valuable undead away when they can capture and carve them up for spare parts instead.

[Drakenbow]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I also find the Hero/Wizard binary arbitrary and decidedly not fun.

I might not have caught this else where, but does this mean you run character types more as a class with access to certain abilities and spells?

Like a ranger type with access to what you deem as ranger-like spells, outdoors talents, and most weapons as a Ranger Class with all else having more cost to purchase?

A hedge wizard would have more access to some talents at normal cost like herbalism and naturalist, but give up some spells on a list that would cost 3 points to learn?

[timm meyers]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

I tend not to be a fan of putting religion in games. People tend to falsely stereo type religions. But hey, I guess it's their campaign.

For me it's better to use a total fantasy creation of dieties, but the use of the priest is strictly about knowledge of the religion which would help in campaigns.....

I agree 100%
Using a modern belief system which is followed by any current living culture in your fantasy setting, is at the very least rude. Even if you feel religion is a fairytale why import modern systems of faith when you can make your own? Makes no sense to me and is just plain lazy.

The whole premise of most fantasy worlds is having a metaphysical environment that is tangible to the same extent that the world includes monsters, magic and epic super heroes. These deities can become major influences and sources of power adding great depth to any campaign.

I think any player in TFT can advocate for more than just ceremonial knowledge if they acquire the priest or theologian talents. At minimum the PC has sacrificed 1 to 3 IQ which in itself can be considered a commitment of "faith" that would be the 1st requirement in requesting aid or power from deities. Those without these talents no matter how good they roleplay should have little hope in obtaining any help from the gods.

[TippetsTX]

A few things to unpack here...

Originally Posted by Jpot

I think a lot of people here resort to "hey it's just magic" and end up dismissing a myriad of great storylines, character play, and interesting situations.

The drama of having a pantheon or pantheons of gods active in your TFT world, how it affects the profession of Cleric and those they interact with in that world, is profound.

I'm not convinced that the lack of 'active' gods limits roleplaying opportunities. Sure, there are many potent plots and classic conflicts drawn from theology and mythology, but most can be implemented w/o the need for direct divine intervention. In TFT (on Cidri at least), religious characters must walk by faith which IMO is potentially a more interesting state (certainly more dynamic) for adventures. And most traditional fantasy settings generally lock you into a particular set of gods... an exclusive pantheon for that world. Cidri, on the other hand, is potentially much more diverse with hundreds if not thousands of belief systems inherented from all of the varied parallel Earths that the Mnoren drew the populace from.

In my own campaign, 'clerics' are still very much a thing though they may not fit the D&D paradigm. To that end though, let's shift focus back to the mechanics proposed here.

Originally Posted by Jpot

Anyway, I digress. I came across this build-out for a TFT Cleric at the link below. Maybe it's author hangs out here, and it's already been posted. If not, I don't have his name but wanted to give him credit. Obviously, Cleric profession of a sort under TFT rules requires a bit more background work from the GM.

REQ: Priest skill (2) and holy symbol.

Here's my first issue with this approach. I'm all for more spells (see my long-running "Show Me the Magic" thread), even spells clearly influenced by concepts of divine or profane powers, but I don't like the idea of having a talent unlock access to those spells. Would you require a wizard to select a (hypothetical) talent called ORACLE in order to learn SCRYING or PATHFINDER?

Originally Posted by Jpot

Detect Evil IQ9 1 ST
Detects the presence of Evil creatures within 2 megahexes of the casters megahex. Requires contact with holy symbol.

Repel Evil IQ10 3 ST + 1 ST/turn
As the MegaHex Avert wizard spell, but only effects evil creatures. Requires holy symbol.

Resist Evil IQ13 2 ST + 1 ST/turn
As Stone Flesh spell but only works against evil

Destroy Evil IQ14 All ST?
As Death Spell, IQ 16, but only works against evil creatures. Requires holy symbol and Theology skill.

Smite Evil IQ15 2 ST +1 ST/turn
Increases the damage done by the target against evil creatures by +2.

This type of magic is problematic IMO for the reasons that @Shostak and others have outlined earlier... what is 'evil' in a game w/o alignment? Do these spells only work against supernatural evil or is the effect subjective based on each caster’s religion or personal morality?

Also, given that several appear to duplicate existing spells, I'm not clear what the point would be. Why cast RESIST EVIL to protect oneself from a demon when you can have STONE FLESH to protect you from the demon and everything else.

Originally Posted by Jpot

A priests Holy Symbol has the following innate enchantments, counting as one enchantment.

Detect Evil by touch, 1 ST

Detect Evil magical casting with 2 mega hexes

Counts as a Mace vs evil creatures, doing +1 damage. Must know how to use a Mace.

Can SLOW all evil creatures within a single adjacent megahex on a successful IQ roll. A critical roll will count as a STOP. Lasts one round only, must be re-tried each round, 1 ST per attempt. More powerful evil may resist this effect.

This feels like it should be a variant of the STAFF spell.

[Jpot]

Yes this build -out is to put the veneer of Cleric into the game. I thought it made some sense if you're looking at a B/X experience like HOW proposes to create with TFT rules.


GURPS Divine Favor is an interesting supplement that could be translated back to TFT. In that, it's (Paragon or Clerical) a Power, based on a Divine Favor Advantage with modifiers applied for situation, location (sanctity or non-sanctity) and most esp behavior. It also comes with a slew of Disadvantages. For those concerned, most of the Prayers (Powers) are reserved for malign supernatural beings. Interesting read. It also has rules for reversing it from good to evil, though because bad clerics don't have the moral restrictions they don't top out as powerful as a good one, for game balance.

Converting this supplement may need its own thread.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Drakenbow

I might not have caught this else where, but does this mean you run character types more as a class with access to certain abilities and spells?

Like a ranger type with access to what you deem as ranger-like spells, outdoors talents, and most weapons as a Ranger Class with all else having more cost to purchase?

A hedge wizard would have more access to some talents at normal cost like herbalism and naturalist, but give up some spells on a list that would cost 3 points to learn?

No. I despise character classes. I allow all characters to learn spells and talents at the same cost.