Countering the dual rapier fencer

[hcobb]

If you face the dual rapier (or worse yet dual saber) fencer under the rules as written don't panic, because their extraordinary abilities have a very small range band.
By ITL 117 (and Hexagram) defend works against melee (but not HTH) physical attacks, thrown weapons, and polearm jabs through their front hexes and unlike high level Unarmed Combat talents they get no extension of these front hexes. Even their two weapon options only apply against the same classes of attacks. So any of the following attacks can negate their defenses. Options marked with an * would have reduced effect against a Shield Expertise user (which is almost always a better use of the off-hand, that or a dagger.)

1. Attack them from side or rear. (Or knock them over somehow and make them "face rear" in all directions.)
2. Attack them in HTH. (Sword and dagger is a classic for a reason.)
3. * Attack them with a missile spell or missile weapon like a bow or thrown (or slung) rock and not a thrown weapon like a spear thrower, bola, or lasso. (If not engaged the Fencer could dodge all of these, but gets no special bonus (as the Shield Expert would) in dodging.)
4. Use the occult attack of a wizard's staff, or any other Special or Thrown spell.
5. Make their current hex very uncomfortable with a Fire spell or a molotail.

What else would you suggest?

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

If you face the dual rapier (or worse yet dual saber) fencer under the rules as written don't panic, because their extraordinary abilities have a very small range band.
By ITL 117 (and Hexagram) defend works against melee (but not HTH) physical attacks, thrown weapons, and polearm jabs through their front hexes and unlike high level Unarmed Combat talents they get no extension of these front hexes. Even their two weapon options only apply against the same classes of attacks. So any of the following attacks can negate their defenses. Options marked with an * would have reduced effect against a Shield Expertise user (which is almost always a better use of the off-hand, that or a dagger.)

1. Attack them from side or rear. (Or knock them over somehow and make them "face rear" in all directions.)
2. Attack them in HTH. (Sword and dagger is a classic for a reason.)
3. * Attack them with a missile spell or missile weapon like a bow or thrown (or slung) rock and not a thrown weapon like a spear thrower, bola, or lasso. (If not engaged the Fencer could dodge all of these, but gets no special bonus (as the Shield Expert would) in dodging.)
4. Use the occult attack of a wizard's staff, or any other Special or Thrown spell.
5. Make their current hex very uncomfortable with a Fire spell or a molotail.

What else would you suggest?

There is a RAW interpretation that doesn't allow Fencer talent to use two sabers or a saber/rapier combo. It allows for two rapiers or a saber and a main gauche. If they dump the IQ points for Sword Expertise and Two Weapons Talents, they can have any two swords in use that their ST will allow.

Reference, (ITL, p. 41, Two Weapons Talent):
"If you are a Fencer (p. 40), you automatically have this talent – but you must use either two rapiers, or a rapier and main-gauche, as your two weapons, since these are the two-weapon techniques taught to fencers. If you are not using the Fencer talent and its bonuses, you may fight with any two weapons that you have the ST to use."

Since it doesn't specifically call out a two sword combo with sabers, I have seen where the saber/saber or the saber/rapier combo is not allowed. In my game, I allow these combos for a fencer. To me, the omission of the combo in the text doesn't exclude it for use since the fencer talent allows for sabers to be wielded.

[timm meyers]

6. "Run Awayyyy!!!" That guy is a Cuisinart, a veritable weed whacker on steroids lets just find out where he lives and poison him....
(sorry for the less serious interjection to this topic)

[DeadParrot]

Fill his hex with Shadow. -6 DX for attacks out, -4 DX for attacks in. Net gain of +2 for the people against the fencer.
Trip spell followed by #1.
Image/Illusion/Summon to give him more targets to deal with.

[hcobb]

My reasoning that a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack is that by ITL 108 it offers no protection against thrown spells, just missile spells.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by hcobb

What else would you suggest?

"There are very few personal problems that cannot be solved through a suitable application of high explosives."

[Axly Suregrip]

Typically fencers are lightly armored since they need a moderately high DX and a higher than average IQ, leaving few points to spare. So, shoot him with arrows. It won't take many.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My reasoning that a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack is that by ITL 108 it offers no protection against thrown spells, just missile spells.

I don't see on p. 108 where it states that "a physical shield provides no protection against any level of occult attack". Staff 3 zaps and above bypass armor. However, I don't see where Staff 1 and 2 zaps bypass shields provided that the facing allows it.

[hcobb]

ITL 108: "Shields protect against physical or missile-spell attacks"
So only those two categories of spells.

[Steve Plambeck]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ITL 108: "Shields protect against physical or missile-spell attacks"
So only those two categories of spells.

That quote indeed says two things, but only one of those things is a category of spells. The proper reading is:

"Shields protect against (1) physical attacks and (2) missile-spell attacks."

"Physical" is not a spell category, "missile-spell" is.

I would still count getting clubbed or jabbed as a "physical" attack, not a spell casting of any category, even if the hand weapon was a Staff (and even though Legacy has turned a Staff into a glorified cattle-prod). So a shield would still count.