Revisiting Talents for Combat

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

+1/level to what? Intimidation?

Personally I can't really see a talent that adds to cut-and-thrust backwards, but not rapiers, but YMMV.

Sorry, yes, Intimidation!

And about your point, yes I understand. The "problem" is that I was trying to follow the suggested guide in Power Ups 3:

Originally Posted by Power-Ups 3, Talents, pg 23

A balanced combat Talent meets three criteria:
1. It encompasses a small number of combat skills – probably fewer than five, discounting individual specialties. For example, Hot Pilot (p. 11) and Seafarer (p. 14) have one combat skill apiece; Strangler (p. 15) affects two; Pickaxe Penchant (p. 14), three; and Halfling Marksmanship (p. 11) and Mr. Smash (p. 13), four each.
2. The affected combat skills are closely related in the motions or thinking involved, making the Talent a credible aptitude. Mr. Smash benefits two-handed swings, for instance, while Halfling Marksmanship helps one predict the arc of light, low-speed projectiles. Combat skills that default to one another are often related.
3. It includes noncombat skills that fit the concept; e.g., Mr. Smash aids Forced Entry because it’s about smashing things. “Diluting” combat skills with noncombat ones is an entirely reasonable way to increase a Talent’s cost enough that players select it to aid characterization, not to save points.

So, by that criteria, the recommendation would be to keep the scope limited and include some non-combat skill. If I were to add all the skills that fit as "sword", it would break this criterion as much as it would go up to medium Talents, with a higher cost.

Which leads to the second "problem"

In the past, I even thought that Combat Talents would be too strong, but today I see that most would actually not be worth it. Most combat-oriented characters will actually focus on one skill (let's say Broadsword, Axe/Mace, etc). That is, an investment of 4 points per level. Talents cost from 5 upwards. Thinking exclusively about saving points, a broad combat Talent could give bonuses to several skills, yes, but that would not normally be taken advantage of by players.

This "problem" is solved by adding non-combative skills that might be useful in the game, but again, this would raise the talent at a cost of 10 per level (or more), which is perhaps not all that attractive. Not that I'm overly concerned about it, but it's something to think about.

I first want Talent to make sense, by the way.

Originally Posted by malloyd

Note that the sword skills (and sword combat arts if you treat them as skills) all default to each other anyway, so any optimized character who is good at a bunch of them probably has one main one and defaults everything else from it, which means he already improves them all by spending 4 points/level. I'm not convinced one bonus is worth that entire extra point, but adding a larger group of things that don't default (RAW anyway) - say Fast Draw, Acrobatics in a swordfight, Intimidation when you threaten somebody with a sword, Dancing (sword dances), and Connoisseur (fine swords) - to bring it up to 5, seems fine.

My original idea was to call the Talent "Sword-Dancer" and include something like Acrobatics, Dance and Intimidation when using swords.

Following the two suggestions, it would look something like this:

Sword-Dancer
10 points/level

Broadsword, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Two-Handed Sword, Dancing (Sword-Dancing), Connoisseur (Fine Swords) and Acrobatics in swordfights

Reaction Bonus: Other swordsmen
Alternative Benefit: +1/level to Intimidation when somebody is at your mercy with your sword
Alternative Cost: 8 points/level
Source: The Voices In My Head

In this version, the concept would then encompass more swords, generally those with a minimum size (swortsword upwards), which would exclude Smallsword and Knife. A version that adds both is possible (it would still be 10 per level, and the alternative cost would be 10 as well), but I'm worried about going too far from the limited scope suggestion, after all, it would be 7 combat skills, while the book suggests less than 5.

OR...

Sword-Dancer
5 points/level

Broadsword, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Two-Handed Sword, Dancing (Sword-Dancing)

Reaction Bonus: Other swordsmen
Alternative Benefit: +1/level to Intimidation when somebody is at your mercy with your sword
Alternative Cost: 6 points/level
Source: The Voices In My Head

This would be a shortened version, to fit the cost of 5 per level (or 6 using alternative cost). I like the suggested idea of bonuses in Acrobatics, but to fit this scope I would have to exclude something and I already had too many bonuses in combat

If the name sounds too much like a style, maybe you could go back to the original name and change Dancing to Connoisseur. I'm still thinking and open to new suggestions and opinions.

[Donny Brook]

IMO, the proper way to analyze whether a Talent is valid is to determine whether there is a sensible reason to exclude skills from it. For example, is there a faculty or facility a person might have that makes them good at an included skill that does not also make them good at using a skill not included in the Talent. If there is no sensible explanation then the Talent is suspect.

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

IMO, the proper way to analyze whether a Talent is valid is to determine whether there is a sensible reason to exclude skills from it. For example, is there a faculty or facility a person might have that makes them good at an included skill that does not also make them good at using a skill not included in the Talent. If there is no sensible explanation then the Talent is suspect.

Well, if I'm going to use the sword "concept" in Power-Ups 7, Wildcard Skills, in the Swords Skill!, it would include Broadsword, Jitte/Sai, Knife, Main-
Gauche, Rapier, Saber, Shortsword, Smallsword, and Two-Handed Sword, as well as related Fast-Draw skills.

That is, 10 to 12 combat skills (depending on how many Fast-Draws you consider). Not only would this greatly extrapolate the recommendations in the book, but it would also include skills that I think would be different from what I visually imagine, such as Jitte/Sai and Main-Gauche.

The idea is to be something simple to use in a traditional medieval fantasy game. It's not supposed to be complicated. You know the character who is a skilled swordsman in the clichéd swords of the genre? That's it. The guy who's going to be good at certain types of blades, not necessarily all of them. Jitte/Sai and Main-Gauche are far from the look I imagine. Smallsword and Knife is debatable, it depends on how you look at it. Perhaps the person's talent involves larger and heavier blades, not adapting well with smaller and/or lighter ones. I'm still thinking.

But in addition to making sense, the ideal would also fit in the recommendations of the books. Unless, I don't know, someone from the SJG comes along and says "okay, that's acceptable", a talent encompassing so many weapons and combat skills, even if within the same concept (swords) it seems at the moment to deviate a little from the rules

[binn05]

Personally, for my campaigns I dislike [10] and [15] point talents. I prefer to use a concept and give a bonus for that concept, even if it has more than 5 or 6 skills and price it as [5].
Also, I prefer talents instead of wildcard skills. If you can create a wildcard to cover some character concepts, sometimes one or two talents will cover the job. Talents are more of an art than a science.