Long Maces

William · 08-09-2023, 07:12 PM

I've finally found at least a little historical attestation for a mild GURPS curiosity I've had for years. On page 72 of the GURPS 3e Basic Set, Smif drew a picture of a man in studded armor holding what appears to be a knobbed mace with a long haft, i.e. halberd or staff length. As far as I could tell at the time, there was no historical record of such a weapon, nor was it given GURPS statistics.

Recently, I saw this picture, the primary interest of which for most people is the "Drunkard's Cloak" or "Spanish Mantle," but which drew my eye notably for the weapons the guards hold - similar long-mace type weapons, these with spikes.

So this has piqued my curiosity again - has anyone ever seen other evidence for such a weapon being in use anywhere, perhaps among city guards, jailors, or police forces? What GURPS statistics might it have? Practically by definition it would use Two-handed Axe/Mace. Perhaps it could be added to the Great Axe and the Warhammer to complete the trio of sw+3 damage weapons of similar statistics, with cr in lieu of cut or imp. But, if it's not quite as heavy as those weapons, and the head is centered on the haft, maybe it does a little less damage and could parry a bit better?

Which actually brings me to another variation on the same idea. In fantasy, staffs with extra weights on both ends are, if not a staple, at least an occasional trope for strong characters - see the weapon that Raijin in FF8 uses, for instance. Obviously, a quarterstaff is already crushing, and one of its primary benefits is its extra defensive ability in normal usage. One wonders if a balanced addition to the weights might add to damage without losing the maneuverability that gives it the defensive advantage, as long as one has the strength required to manhandle it around. (You're adding not only to its mass but also its moment of inertia - however, the fundamental use of it will still have you holding it near the center.)

Polydamas · 08-09-2023, 07:32 PM

The Japanese name for these was Kanabo "metal staff". GURPS Low Tech may list other names.

Generally speaking artists exaggerate the size of the heads of axes and hammers because the person enjoying the picture does not have to move the thing!

William · 08-09-2023, 07:56 PM

Hmm... GURPS Martial Arts gives the Tetsubo basically the stats I was thinking of for the "long mace," yeah. I suspect a ball of metal at the end vs a long cylindrical metal cap are going to be roughly similar at the granularity level of the GURPS stats.

A friend also pointed me to the "Lang ya bang," the wolf's tooth mace, which is about shoulder height and comes with a cylindrical head sporting a comb of short spikes. It's a performance weapon in some Chinese martial arts - and also made the news recently following some incidents of Chinese/Indian border violence, when the two countries agreed not to shoot at each other in the region. China then sent soldiers armed with said maces.

I do still think Raijin's weapon seems pretty reasonable as a quarterstaff with a damage bump for a strong user.

malloyd · 08-09-2023, 08:19 PM

There is also the goedendag, which has a point that you could stab with, but in contemporary art always seems to be wielded like a two handed club.

tbone · 08-09-2023, 08:28 PM

Here's a version of the long mace, from my big page o' new weapons. It's designed to fit between the mace and the maul in size. Normal use is with Two-Handed Axe/Mace skill.

=====
Light Maul

A more wieldy version of the maul, perfect for the mace-favoring cleric who wants to “anoint” the heathen from a more discreet distance. (Whether you pick up this or the existing heavier version, feel free to call it a long mace or war club, a sledgehammer, a mason’s mallet, whatever you like. The name doesn’t matter for game purposes; if you’ve seen one giant hammer, you’ve seen a maul.)

Light Maul sw+4 cr Reach 1, 2* Parry 0U $70 9lbs ST 12‡
=====

I'm not aware of any published "official" version of a similar long mace, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's one hiding somewhere in the GURPSverse.

The Colonel · 08-10-2023, 05:42 AM

Is it my imagination, or is that going to be horribly unbalanced? Impact weapons are not famed for their agility, and sticking one on the far end of a six foot pole will surely only make matters worse.

tbone · 08-10-2023, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Is it my imagination, or is that going to be horribly unbalanced?

It is indeed! Anything modeled after existing two-hex axes and hammers should presumably be saddled with the same "requires Ready after swing" drawback. Ugh. (Anyone have a PC who actually uses an axe or maul with that dreaded drawback?)

Varyon · 08-10-2023, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William

Which actually brings me to another variation on the same idea. In fantasy, staffs with extra weights on both ends are, if not a staple, at least an occasional trope for strong characters - see the weapon that Raijin in FF8 uses, for instance. Obviously, a quarterstaff is already crushing, and one of its primary benefits is its extra defensive ability in normal usage. One wonders if a balanced addition to the weights might add to damage without losing the maneuverability that gives it the defensive advantage, as long as one has the strength required to manhandle it around. (You're adding not only to its mass but also its moment of inertia - however, the fundamental use of it will still have you holding it near the center.)

Fantasy Tech 2: Weapons of Fantasy has double-ended weapons, I believe including mace, axe, and sword variants. I think it has them getting the +2 to Parry of staff weapons, but am away from the machine with most of my GURPS stuff on it.

thom · 08-10-2023, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbone

Ugh. (Anyone have a PC who actually uses an axe or maul with that dreaded drawback?)

Yep, one of my players (a dwarf) used a Great Axe, and I let him use Kromm's suggested "Extra Ready (one weapon)" for 10cp so he could swing and then bring the Axe back to Ready in one turn. He was pretty happy with that...

thom

tbone · 08-10-2023, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thom

Yep, one of my players (a dwarf) used a Great Axe, and I let him use Kromm's suggested "Extra Ready (one weapon)" for 10cp so he could swing and then bring the Axe back to Ready in one turn. He was pretty happy with that...

Sure, I can see that. Same with PCs who overcome the slowness with high ST.

But PCs who willingly choose a greataxe or maul, and just accept that Ready requirement after every attack... Pretty darn rare, I think!

08-09-2023, 07:12 PM	#1
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Long Maces I've finally found at least a little historical attestation for a mild GURPS curiosity I've had for years. On page 72 of the GURPS 3e Basic Set, Smif drew a picture of a man in studded armor holding what appears to be a knobbed mace with a long haft, i.e. halberd or staff length. As far as I could tell at the time, there was no historical record of such a weapon, nor was it given GURPS statistics. Recently, I saw this picture, the primary interest of which for most people is the "Drunkard's Cloak" or "Spanish Mantle," but which drew my eye notably for the weapons the guards hold - similar long-mace type weapons, these with spikes. So this has piqued my curiosity again - has anyone ever seen other evidence for such a weapon being in use anywhere, perhaps among city guards, jailors, or police forces? What GURPS statistics might it have? Practically by definition it would use Two-handed Axe/Mace. Perhaps it could be added to the Great Axe and the Warhammer to complete the trio of sw+3 damage weapons of similar statistics, with cr in lieu of cut or imp. But, if it's not quite as heavy as those weapons, and the head is centered on the haft, maybe it does a little less damage and could parry a bit better? Which actually brings me to another variation on the same idea. In fantasy, staffs with extra weights on both ends are, if not a staple, at least an occasional trope for strong characters - see the weapon that Raijin in FF8 uses, for instance. Obviously, a quarterstaff is already crushing, and one of its primary benefits is its extra defensive ability in normal usage. One wonders if a balanced addition to the weights might add to damage without losing the maneuverability that gives it the defensive advantage, as long as one has the strength required to manhandle it around. (You're adding not only to its mass but also its moment of inertia - however, the fundamental use of it will still have you holding it near the center.)

08-09-2023, 07:32 PM	#2
Polydamas Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Central Europe	Re: Long Maces The Japanese name for these was Kanabo "metal staff". GURPS Low Tech may list other names. Generally speaking artists exaggerate the size of the heads of axes and hammers because the person enjoying the picture does not have to move the thing! __________________ "It is easier to banish a habit of thought than a piece of knowledge." H. Beam Piper This forum got less aggravating when I started using the ignore feature Last edited by Polydamas; 08-09-2023 at 07:53 PM.

08-09-2023, 07:56 PM	#3
William Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Upper Peninsula of Michigan	Re: Long Maces Hmm... GURPS Martial Arts gives the Tetsubo basically the stats I was thinking of for the "long mace," yeah. I suspect a ball of metal at the end vs a long cylindrical metal cap are going to be roughly similar at the granularity level of the GURPS stats. A friend also pointed me to the "Lang ya bang," the wolf's tooth mace, which is about shoulder height and comes with a cylindrical head sporting a comb of short spikes. It's a performance weapon in some Chinese martial arts - and also made the news recently following some incidents of Chinese/Indian border violence, when the two countries agreed not to shoot at each other in the region. China then sent soldiers armed with said maces. I do still think Raijin's weapon seems pretty reasonable as a quarterstaff with a damage bump for a strong user.

08-09-2023, 08:19 PM	#4
malloyd Join Date: Jun 2006	Re: Long Maces There is also the goedendag, which has a point that you could stab with, but in contemporary art always seems to be wielded like a two handed club. __________________ -- MA Lloyd

08-09-2023, 08:28 PM	#5
tbone Join Date: Aug 2004	Re: Long Maces Here's a version of the long mace, from my big page o' new weapons. It's designed to fit between the mace and the maul in size. Normal use is with Two-Handed Axe/Mace skill. ===== Light Maul A more wieldy version of the maul, perfect for the mace-favoring cleric who wants to “anoint” the heathen from a more discreet distance. (Whether you pick up this or the existing heavier version, feel free to call it a long mace or war club, a sledgehammer, a mason’s mallet, whatever you like. The name doesn’t matter for game purposes; if you’ve seen one giant hammer, you’ve seen a maul.) Light Maul sw+4 cr Reach 1, 2* Parry 0U $70 9lbs ST 12‡ ===== I'm not aware of any published "official" version of a similar long mace, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's one hiding somewhere in the *GURPSverse. __________________ T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com RSS feed \| Site updates thread \| Twitter/X: @Gamesdiner (dormant until the platform is well again) (Latest goods on site*: No Big New Content of late, but the blogroll has returned to the sidebar, this page collects content edits/updates, and this page hosts minor notices and side thoughts of the sort that used to go to Twitter/X.)

08-10-2023, 05:42 AM	#6
The Colonel Join Date: Jul 2006	Re: Long Maces Is it my imagination, or is that going to be horribly unbalanced? Impact weapons are not famed for their agility, and sticking one on the far end of a six foot pole will surely only make matters worse.