How to avoid killing your player characters as GM

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I think I mentioned that it took me like half an hour to an hour of research to discover only the first shot in an attack is an automatic hit? At least I hope I did! lol.

I am not 100% clear but I think you are saying that there are a lot of rules and it's hard to learn them all.

I agree, but since I was talking to someone who was asking if you had run test combats, I want to be sure we're all on the same page here: my point is that you did run test combats, and that part of your concern seems to have come from the fact that bad luck in the test combat plus rules errors resulted in your skill 10 mooks blowing the head off a test PC (Bad Bart) from 7 yards away. That wouldn't happen in actual play unless the mooks were 1-2 yards away, because there are no automatic hits in GURPS. If you skill 10 and have a -10 to hit, rolling a 3 is not a critical hit--it's a miss. (Technically you're not even supposed to roll at all in that case.)

This makes the corrected test combat result less alarming--instead of a headshotted Bad Bart, he's fine. Agreed?

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

TBH I'm quite proud of the project and this weekend I should be able to rebuild bad bart, give him a companion and do some roleplaying playing all the parts myself :). It'l help a lot with my ease of flowing through the rules and each session will help me write finer details in my lore and setting. Grand vision stuff is comparatively easy to write (who founded the city ect.) But the real juicy bits of a setting or story only come out when you let it live. You're not even sure what kind of story you're working with until you let all the characters and setting live and define themselves tbh!

Good luck Bad Bart!

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Pi, see box on Basic Set p277. This works in some ways, it makes sense for the narrower, edgeless point to be less wounding. It works less well in some other ways, since it is still a slow pointy object with respect to armor. If a shank can penetrate kevlar, a bodkin should be able to! (If the cutting edge is the deciding factor in penetration, a number of melee impaling weapons shouldn't be imp.)

(There are alternatives for this for the picky, but they're in house rule territory.)

Yeah I deleted after a moment realizing how *stupid* was being because they literally said pi and imp right there!

And I totally agree it even fits with what I was saying. Imp is that tip of a sword, the tip has sharp edges not just the sharp point that makes it penetrate differently and slice right through fiber armors. I think that's a good example of gurps modeling things very realistically if you want that sort of thing.

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I am not 100% clear but I think you are saying that there are a lot of rules and it's hard to learn them all.

I agree, but since I was talking to someone who was asking if you had run test combats, I want to be sure we're all on the same page here: my point is that you did run test combats, and that part of your concern seems to have come from the fact that bad luck in the test combat plus rules errors resulted in your skill 10 mooks blowing the head off a test PC (Bad Bart) from 7 yards away. That wouldn't happen in actual play unless the mooks were 1-2 yards away, because there are no automatic hits in GURPS. If you skill 10 and have a -10 to hit, rolling a 3 is not a critical hit--it's a miss. (Technically you're not even supposed to roll at all in that case.)

This makes the corrected test combat result less alarming--instead of a headshotted Bad Bart, he's fine. Agreed?



Good luck Bad Bart!

Well... the combat rules are spread across three sections. One section, combat lite is segregated from the rest due to the basic set being two books (why?) There are like... ten damage types each with their own individual effects on armor and there are 4 different (at least...) body types that each wounding type has an effect on. There's rules for how much of a negative someone has to attack back if you hit them. there's rules about how well they can defend if you hit them hard enough. There's rules for blow through, there's rules for using a cloak as a shield. There's rules for this, there's rules for that. That's not even getting into the fatigue and injury in characters that's only given a page and a half then quite expanded in campaigns...

Then if you want firearms you should get high tech which adds MORE rules...(of which I have barely dipped a pinky toe in. They got rules for fanning a single action revolver's hammer that I'll need for one of my player's characters when their campaign starts...)

It's ENDLESS and it's all in this jumbled mess sort of thrown out with no coherent organizational structure. . I have learned more arguing here than I have with the books.

I still don't think there's a ruling in the basic set that declares that a full ROF attack from a firearm gets all shots landed on a critical hit or only the first is guaranteed. I found that rule *here* and I have a suspicion that the rule is actually in high tech not the basic set!

This is the burden of me, the GM and so I need to master this and be the conduit that makes it all intuitive for my future players. That... that's my burden but the rest of it. The powers and cybernetics and spells that say "see this other page", at least I can fix that. My players won't have to reference basic set 245 or whatever in order to see what the power listed in my book says. The power, cyberwear, spell, hack, special ability ect will have a complete description of it's effects right then and there. Then there will be an index at the start of the chapter so you know what page said ability is on within the chapter itself. When you open the source book (at first digitally, if it's good enough? Who knows maybe I'll print one copy and bind it!) asking "what are the advantage of cyber arms" there will be absolutely no confusion about where exactly on what page that information is. No skipping around, no flipping between books. It's right there. Clean and easy to get.

Also on survivability it was a lucky pass in a sense. I could shift the point of target to one that's not 4x damage and the others don't hit. I have a few more tools now. Roll 1d6. 1-2 body. The other 4 possible outcomes represent arms and legs. No head targeting for now. The face has a good chance to obliterate an eye doesn't it?

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Yeah I deleted after a moment realizing how *stupid* was being because they literally said pi and imp right there!

And I totally agree it even fits with what I was saying. Imp is that tip of a sword, the tip has sharp edges not just the sharp point that makes it penetrate differently and slice right through fiber armors. I think that's a good example of gurps modeling things very realistically if you want that sort of thing.

It would, except the thing is that (A) spikes are not something basic anti-bullet textiles are good against and (B) many spike-like items are statted as imp, not pi. Anti-stab armor is a specialty developed because basic bullet-protection kevlar was failing against a common threat.

Edged stabs and edgeless stabs may have different properties with respect to armor, but they don't fit the imp/pi distinction because pi DR is consistently based on bullets, not ice picks.

(My best examples of imp for non-edged weapons are the rondel dagger and stiletto in Low Tech, which you probably don't have and don't want to pick up.)

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Then if you want firearms you should get high tech which adds MORE rules...(of which I have barely dipped a pinky toe in. They got rules for fanning a single action revolver's hammer that I'll need for one of my player's characters when their campaign starts...)

Okay, real serious note here. While I personally am 100% gung-ho for collecting most of the rules, you are not obligated to katamari up the entire 4th Edition bibliography. You might seriously benefit from not doing that and focusing tightly on Basic for the most part.

(Though High Tech is a fairly light and useful source in terms of extra rules. If you were going to add one book it isn't a bad choice. Its bulk is gear tables.)

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I still don't think there's a ruling in the basic set that declares that a full ROF attack from a firearm gets all shots landed on a critical hit or only the first is guaranteed. I found that rule *here* and I have a suspicion that the rule is actually in high tech not the basic set!

No, that's just straightforward reading. Maybe clarified in FAQ, IDK. Additional hits for ROF are for margin of success. Critical success doesn't change margin of success calculation.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

The face has a good chance to obliterate an eye doesn't it?

It does not. It has literally no chance except when it is corrosive damage (splashing acid on people's faces is one of the weird-but-historical nasty things). The rules benefit from reading more carefully.

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

It would, except the thing is that (A) spikes are not something basic anti-bullet textiles are good against and (B) many spike-like items are statted as imp, not pi. Anti-stab armor is a specialty developed because basic bullet-protection kevlar was failing against a common threat.

Edged stabs and edgeless stabs may have different properties with respect to armor, but they don't fit the imp/pi distinction because pi DR is consistently based on bullets, not ice picks.

(My best examples of imp for non-edged weapons are the rondel dagger and stiletto in Low Tech, which you probably don't have and don't want to pick up.)

Okay, real serious note here. While I personally am 100% gung-ho for collecting most of the rules, you are not obligated to katamari up the entire 4th Edition bibliography. You might seriously benefit from not doing that and focusing tightly on Basic for the most part.

(Though High Tech is a fairly light and useful source in terms of extra rules. If you were going to add one book it isn't a bad choice. Its bulk is gear tables.)

No, that's just straightforward reading. Maybe clarified in FAQ, IDK. Additional hits for ROF are for margin of success. Critical success doesn't change margin of success calculation.

It does not. It has literally no chance except when it is corrosive damage (splashing acid on people's faces is one of the weird-but-historical nasty things). The rules benefit from reading more carefully.

Well, the thing with the ROF rule is that the point of critical hits are that the attack connects! It connects and ignores all means of active defense. So it's not intuitive to think "well part of my attack hits but not all of it." All three shots fired out of a semi auto ROF 3 weapon are ONE attack, not three. So it's not immediately obvious that the whole attack would not connect when the rules say critical hits are a guaranteed hit for the attack.

And yup, you're right about the face hit. Maybe I was reading the critical hit table for faces? I dunno. It seems odd that shooting the face provides no benefit other than bypassing many armor types considering how obsessive gurps is with putting the boot in on characters who are losing. A portion of the t-box is actually in that facial area... Not gonna complain though.

Also you're exactly right about the modern armor. That's a whole can of worms that also got me to consider deleting that original comment. I don't know why gambeson were a fair bit better at pointy threats than modern fiber armor. Were gambeson thicker than the normal 40 layers of kevlar? I have no idea!

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Well, the thing with the ROF rule is that the point of critical hits are that the attack connects! It connects and ignores all means of active defense. So it's not intuitive to think "well part of my attack hits but not all of it." All three shots fired out of a semi auto ROF 3 weapon are ONE attack, not three. So it's not immediately obvious that the whole attack would not connect when the rules say critical hits are a guaranteed hit for the attack.

A successful attack roll also connects. But it means only part of your RoF attack hits. There's nothing in the critical hit definition that changes that, so it doesn't change that.

GURPS rules as written are not perfect but are usually better than the rules that people invent by misreading GURPS rules.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

And yup, you're right about the face hit. Maybe I was reading the critical hit table for faces? I dunno. It seems odd that shooting the face provides no benefit other than bypassing many armor types considering how obsessive gurps is with putting the boot in on characters who are losing. A portion of the t-box is actually in that facial area... Not gonna complain though.

I mean, the thing is GURPS really is not that. Yes it does hinder significantly wounded characters' ability to fight a bit. That doesn't constitute an agenda of "putting the boot in on characters who are losing".

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Also you're exactly right about the modern armor. That's a whole can of worms that also got me to consider deleting that original comment. I don't know why gambeson were a fair bit better at pointy threats than modern fiber armor. Were gambeson thicker than the normal 40 layers of kevlar? I have no idea!

I suspect it is, but I don't know how I'd find dimensions for such kevlar. Non-metallic pre-modern primary armor tends to be heavy and thick AIUI.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Well... the combat rules are spread across three sections. One section, combat lite is segregated from the rest due to the basic set being two books (why?) There are like... ten damage types each with their own individual effects on armor and there are 4 different (at least...) body types that each wounding type has an effect on. There's rules for how much of a negative someone has to attack back if you hit them. there's rules about how well they can defend if you hit them hard enough. There's rules for blow through, there's rules for using a cloak as a shield. There's rules for this, there's rules for that. That's not even getting into the fatigue and injury in characters that's only given a page and a half then quite expanded in campaigns...

Then if you want firearms you should get high tech which adds MORE rules...(of which I have barely dipped a pinky toe in. They got rules for fanning a single action revolver's hammer that I'll need for one of my player's characters when their campaign starts...)

It's ENDLESS and it's all in this jumbled mess sort of thrown out with no coherent organizational structure. . I have learned more arguing here than I have with the books.

To be frank, I play Dungeon Fantasy RPG (Powered By GURPS!) now. Haven't played GURPS since 2010 or so, although I still steal rules from GURPS: Martial Arts, GURPS: Low Tech, etc. The DFRPG rulebooks are not perfect but they're above-average in clarity for RPG rulebooks (good indexes, good footnotes, an appropriate number of examples, etc.). I think they are easier to learn than raw GURPS is, and I applaud you for doing prep work to make it easier on your players when it's their turn to learn too.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Well, the thing with the ROF rule is that the point of critical hits are that the attack connects! It connects and ignores all means of active defense. So it's not intuitive to think "well part of my attack hits but not all of it." All three shots fired out of a semi auto ROF 3 weapon are ONE attack, not three. So it's not immediately obvious that the whole attack would not connect when the rules say critical hits are a guaranteed hit for the attack.

The question you're asking is "what happens when I hit with a ROF 3 weapon?" and the answer you're looking for is on page B374 of Campaigns:

Rapid fire may score multiple hits from a single attack. A successful attack means you scored at least one hit – and possibly a number of extra hits, up to a maximum equal to the number of shots you fired. To find the number of hits you scored, compare your margin of success on the attack roll to your weapon’s Recoil.

An attack scores one extra hit for every full multiple of Recoil by which you make your attack roll. The total number of hits cannot exceed shots fired. For instance, if your attack had Rcl 2, success by 0-1 would mean one hit; success by 2-3, one extra hit; success by 4-5, two extra hits; success by 6-7, three extra hits; and so on.

(Emphasis mine.)

It is absolutely normal both in GURPS and in real life to hit with only one bullet out of three.

High Rate of Fire (ROF) doesn't exist in Dungeon Fantasy RPG so I'm lucky I remembered this rule from over a decade ago. :-) If hypothetically you didn't know that this rule existed and you just decided to ignore ROF and say that each gun fires only once per round, that would be better than ruling that all the bullets hit. (In fact, one of the problems with GURPS IIRC is that in certain situations you CAN get overpowered shotgun-style weapons where all the bullets hit, in which case it's better to change the rules.)

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

(In fact, one of the problems with GURPS IIRC is that in certain situations you CAN get overpowered shotgun-style weapons where all the bullets hit, in which case it's better to change the rules.)

I can't think of where that would happen. Needing at least 1 RoF per hit means that you need to hit by incredibly margins to score 100% hits with even a single round of buckshot and if you're anywhere close to that with something with significantly higher RoF than that your problem isn't the RoF rules, it's what you've done to your basic attack roll.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

I can't think of where that would happen. Needing at least 1 RoF per hit means that you need to hit by incredibly margins to score 100% hits with even a single round of buckshot and if you're anywhere close to that with something with significantly higher RoF than that your problem isn't the RoF rules, it's what you've done to your basic attack roll.

I misremembered, it's only half the bullets, not all. The rule is on B409, Shotguns and multiple projectiles.

For example, I can buy a 1d corrosion attack [10] with Rapid Fire enhancement (multiple projectiles, 1 x 300, +300%) and Increased Range (x50, +50%). It costs 45 points (10 points x 450%) and practically anyone I hit (out to 50 yards) takes 150d of corrosion damage (roughly 500) and loses about 100 points of DR, so in practice they're turned into sludge by the second shot at the very latest even if the GM rules that DR loss happens only after all HP loss is resolved. (I can't remember if there's a canonical order.)

Anyway, the point is that you shouldn't use the B409 rules for massive shotgun attacks. Make up your own rules or don't allow massive shotguns.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

It's got my curiosity so I'm gonna check em out!

The Pyramid articles being referenced are to be found in issues #3/52, #3/85, and #3/96, and are named "Low Tech Armor Design," "Cutting Edge Armor Design," and "Ultra Tech Armor Design," respectively. The first largely covers TL 0-4 (with a few bits from higher TL's), as implied by the name, and is also something of a "first draft" of the system - the system is improved for the latter two articles. The second is the one that is most relevant to a cyberpunk campaign, covering TL 5-9. The third may also be of use, as it covers TL 9-12 (while I believe cyberpunk is usually TL 9 in technology, you could have some higher-TL materials available at a sizeable premium as experimental/prototype designs, and there are some TL 9 options in the last article that aren't in the second - namely, reflec armor, which is useful against lasers).

As an example, you mentioned you'd like to have DR 8/4* armor as general low-profile body armor. Magnetic Liquid Armor (one of the two options "Cutting Edge Armor Design" gives for what UT calls Reflex) fits the bill, as it has its full DR against pi/cut and half DR against everything else. A full body suit of MLA that provides DR 8/4* has a coverage of 21.35 square feet for a typical person (there are rules for adjusting this based on the character's body weight if desired; note for a cyborg you should use what their weight would be if they were still flesh-and-blood, being denser doesn't make armor heavier - weight is just a proxy for bulk in this case). DR 8/4* MLA has a base weight of 0.256 lb per square foot and a base cost of $200 per lb. If it's just a bodysuit, that means 5.4656 lb and 1,093.12; I'd just round these to 5.5 lb and $1100, respectively. There's also the option to make it Optimized Fabric, which represents flexible armor that has varying thicknesses (basically, thick where you need extra protection, thin where you typically don't, much like how rigid armor does it). That reduces weight, but boosts cost and makes the armor susceptible to targeting Chinks (flexible armor normally lacks chinks, but optimized fabric does have them) - in this case, it reduces weight to 4.37248 lb and increases cost to $1748.992 (I'd treat these as 4.4 lb and $1750). Thickness would be around 0.089" - but I have no idea if that's like a dress shirt, T-shirt, hoodie, or winter coat, as everything I find online just talks about GSM (grams per square meter), but MLA is going to be markedly denser than clothing fabrics, so that doesn't work. The article does state that anything with less than half the maximum DR (which typically corresponds to 0.5") can be concealed as or under clothing, and we're well below that.

Of course, a full body suit isn't going to work for low-profile armor. So maybe it's instead a pair of pants and a hoodie, leaving out the Front Face (Back Face is the back of your head, which is covered, at least when the hoodie is pulled up), Front Neck, the Hands, and the Feet. That removes 6.65 square feet, making it around 3.75 lb and $750 for Fabric, around 3 lb and $1200 for Optimized Fabric. You can also add features like Biomedical Sensors or IR Cloaking (making you harder to spot with Infravision and similar), if desired.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I misremembered, it's only half the bullets, not all. The rule is on B409, Shotguns and multiple projectiles.

For example, I can buy a 1d corrosion attack [10] with Rapid Fire enhancement (multiple projectiles, 1 x 300, +300%) and Increased Range (x50, +50%). It costs 45 points (10 points x 450%) and practically anyone I hit (out to 50 yards) takes 150d of corrosion damage (roughly 500) and loses about 100 points of DR, so in practice they're turned into sludge by the second shot at the very latest even if the GM rules that DR loss happens only after all HP loss is resolved. (I can't remember if there's a canonical order.)

Anyway, the point is that you shouldn't use the B409 rules for massive shotgun attacks. Make up your own rules or don't allow massive shotguns.

Ah, yes, if you cross shotgun rules with custom built powers designed to abuse them by way of the dubious corrosive rules, you will arguably have a problem with the point value of the ability.

Though your rabbit hole here goes weird - the "all HP loss" thing implies you think this is multiple hits, which it is not. If you hit with it, it is only one hit, one damage resolution. You need the second shot that gets to multiply zero dr by 150 to actually accomplish anything.

...This attack is, of course, comparable to a cannon firing (unusually small shot) canister rounds. The error is the price more than the destructiveness.


If you want some real hilarity, use crushing instead of corrosive damage. It won't directly hurt (armored) people. It'll just fling them away at around Move 50 so they splash when they hit a solid object. Good chance of first-hit lethality and it costs half as much.