How to avoid killing your player characters as GM

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

It's not that extreme. If my normal Dodge is 13 (because I'm a super cool vampire with Speed 9 and Combat Reflexes), +3 for using a large shield and +2 for Acrobatic Dodge, and I get hit for lots of damage and my Dodge gets halved to 6, +3 for shield and +2 for Acrobatic Dodge, I still succeed on my Dodge (11) about 62% of the time. I'm dodging like hamstrung greased lightning but it's still greased lightning. If I Dodge and Drop for another +3 in exchange for ending my turn prone, I've got effective Dodge 14 and a 90% chance of success.

If you get seriously wounded you have to adapt and start being more cautious, but you still get to succeed on some defense rolls.



100% agreed. 10-13 HP seems too low for vampires.

TBH it was way too low for any character in a high combat firearm laden setting! My campaign will have the possibility of three paths of cybernetics, raw human magic, or vampirism for player characters to achieve heroic results. Even the cybernetic path has it's own magic it can tap into.

As such I was principally concerned with just getting the basics working, having good fun gunfights with normal human characters without it being instantly lethal first. With the basics done I figured I'd move on to the supernatural and superhuman power scale. When I started looking at even vampires with supernatural abilities with the base HP range not being able to cope? I started to panic!

What I love about gurps is the combat is attack and defense. There's counters and movement and all sorts of things you can do. I just knew that these weapons would EVENTUALLY connect and they need to connect sometimes in order for players to feel the threat so I was worried about not having things padded enough so they could take a hit, be reminded how *dangerous* this all is but not have all those instant "you lose" crippling effects fall into place. They are all quite "realistic" but they are not very... well they aren't good gameplay for adventurers. It's the opposite of normal gameplay.

When a player is losing you don't normally put the boot in and intentionally finish the job as gurps is systemically designed to do. (sorry if the player has a HIGH dodge roll of 12 and the game halves it you get a 6... which is basically "get a critical roll or you're dead.")

One of the things that I am thinking about is if I as a GM can get players to think about combat like Kenshi. With decent HT at 15-16 (heck even a 14) it's pretty much impossible to straight up die on a failed HT roll that isn't a crit failure. You're "mortally wounded." You're out but not *technically dead.* In Kenshi... well it happens, bad guy cuts you up, steals your sandwich and leaves you for dead. High toughness (HT in gurps) is how you survive that fate and don't bleed to death before you can wake up and bandage your wounds. It's the will to survive. I wonder if a house rule increasing the margin of self recovery from that is a good idea?

But it's hard to change player perspective that this is part of the game and not painful gameplay. How to set it up so they know they can get k/o but they will always have the chance for vengeance?

Originally Posted by johndallman

No, it isn't. Did you start out looking at the 3e Basic Set that would go with the V:tA book? 3e started out pretty focussed on 100-point characters, but expanded its range a fair bit. 4e has always been aimed at a wide range of point totals.

Having 30 or 40 HP doesn't let a character give up wearing armour, or mean they don't need to bother with making defence rolls. It does mean you can survive bigger attacks while doing those things, and last longer if there are lots of opponents.

Y'know you might have hit upon a slight problem of my perspective. I started playing gurps as a kid with 3rd edition. Every game I ever played started with 100-150 point characters then.

Now I got a 4th edition book and the VTM book I'm using for GUIDELINES for my setting. I like the concepts of the powers in it (I don't like some lore things like generations from Cain ect.) I've already been adjusting it like changing celerity's speed per level, partially this is because I want a human burning through fatigue with a reflex booster implant to be on par with a vampire of the same level of boost.

However one of the things that is taking me getting used to is a 250 point base character (recommended in the quite dated cyberpunk book I found in a bargain bin... I'm not sure what edition it was made for... I use it only to get a "feel" but it's rules are other wise pretty useless it seems.) From the excessively grounded in reality 100-150 point perspective it was too easy for me to latch onto "humans should have 10-13 HP." Which means the scale of combat I want just... is too much risk for the player characters.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Ok, I quoted you three to show a consistent response. Imagine I have this big monster manual full of baddies. (I do actually "creatures of the night", got it specifically because this campaign has supernatural horrors. ) Then I flip through dismayed because my players wouldn't ever EVER conceivably be able to face these things without a fair chance of instant death even if they have 500 points because of things like " players should be in the 10-13 hp range, never over 20" the extreme damage ect.

I've never said that, and it's wrong anyway, unless they also can never dodge (or parry if the monsters make melee attacks). I'd be quite happy for 500 point character in a game that sounds fairly cinematic to have 20 hit points if being tough is their 'thing'.

Your response is "well the game is fundamentally incapable of handling those cool encounters. You can only plausibly allow your players to confront giant rats, and maybe a dog but never a hellhound. "

And I'm like "well if that's the case there's something fundamentally wrong with the game."

The consistent response back "no, there's something fundamentally wrong with you."

Those machineguns and rifles are like the hellhound. I COULD snip them out of my campaign (with no way to plausibly explain why in a nearly lawless society full of super tech and cybernetics the technology of a tl7 rifle is not available ) but then I'd just be in effect giving up on the game and all of it's possibilities which is downright depressing.

I wouldn't know about that. I've run games with 100-125 point characters facing foes in the 'hellhound' range, and bad guys with submachineguns while the PCs mostly had pistols and shotguns and no armour. The only death was when they called the bluff of a guy with an old 7.62x54R rifle and one of the PCs took a hit in the chest when he was all out of Luck.

My 'Traveller' games started with 200 point characters, and they've faced a lot of scary opponents over the years, and as the PCs generally have decent armour, those opponents tend to have powerful weapons. Despite that deaths have been rare, and even serious injuries have been memorable for their rarity. All the (PC) deaths I can recall were from taking gambles, knowing that a character death was possible and losing that gamble (much more often the gamble would be won, and the PCs would win).

I've offered advice as best I can, but really I think you're over-selling the problem. Have you run an adventure for a few sessions, as a test run, to see how much of a problem it actually is in play? Or fought out some scenarios, with the character having various advantages and builds to see what works and what doesn't?

Now, I absolutely will agree that if there's no decent body armour available and full-bore rifles are common, 'normal' (sub 200-point, not built with exotic advantages) people will get hurt or killed fairly often if they get hit. But the solution is to make the characters you don't want to that happen to not-normal, unless you want everyone in the game universe to find guns to be only moderately annoying, in which case you should nerf the guns to match the universe. If you want cinematic characters, they need cinematic advantages (Luck, Enhanced Dodge, etc.) and the points to pay for them, and/or the option to adjust outcomes by expending points ("Influencing Success Rolls", Campaigns, p.347).

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

It might have been me taking MBurr0003's statement on page 3 too to heart. He made three assertions with this sort of thing.

And I did so under two assumptions:

1 - That was for normal folks. 2 - You were trying to emulate Vampire: The Masquerade. Once I realize you had no desire to adapt VtM into GURPS I started aiming you at using Unliving, higher HP and DR. Or as I said, just do what you want and nerf firearms, but beware the knock on effect of making swords and axes king.

3) "don't have more powerful than 5d weapons. " (again with the "we have a monster manual full of cool baddies to fight that you should totally never ever ever ever put in game. They are just for looking at, not for playing against. There are plenty of small arms like battle rifles and tl9 assault rifles that do 6d+ damage)

Where you get "you should never the cool bestiary" from I have no idea, and yes, if you're pitching a fit over a 7d rifle, people will advise to not allow NPCs to carry all those battle and assault rifles. That's just sensible.

gurps when it says 2d6 swing doesn't MEAN 2d6 damage... that's more like 4d6 damage for that weapon...

That's not even accurate either. If a weapon does "2d sw damage", it's doing 2d sw damage. Now it might do more or less wounds*, but the dice do not change.

* Due to cutting or impaling wounding modifiers and hit location modifiers, as well as less from DR.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I'd be quite happy for 500 point character in a game that sounds fairly cinematic to have 20 hit points if being tough is their 'thing'.

I was happy with the 30 HP, DR 10 monstrosity I made in a 250 point Dungeon Fantasy game. I did "play carefully" in order to avoid "breaking the game", not be too much of a threat or too efficient at dealing with foes, thus ensuring the GM never wanted to throw something to "truly challenge the damage sponge", because I know how easily that can become a TPK when the damage sponge drops due to bad rolls and the rest of the party is suddenly facing a monster they cannot handle.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

However one of the things that is taking me getting used to is a 250 point base character (recommended in the quite dated cyberpunk book I found in a bargain bin... I'm not sure what edition it was made for... .

The only "cyberpunk" book ever made for Gurps was early 90s and so early 3e.. It mentions the Secret Service incident on the cover.

"Modern 4e cyber is in Ultratech and Bio-tech. UT also has more armor and rules for disguised armor that is very useful for cyberpunk.

Incidentally, this "soft" clothing armor helps balance melee against guns. It's base 12/4 which is DR 12 against Piercing and Cutting but only DR 4 against everything else.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Incidentally, this "soft" clothing armor helps balance melee against guns. It's base 12/4 which is DR 12 against Piercing and Cutting but only DR 4 against everything else.

Which has the amusing effect that it's more effective vs armour-piercing arrows than standard broadheads.

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The only "cyberpunk" book ever made for Gurps was early 90s and so early 3e.. It mentions the Secret Service incident on the cover.

"Modern 4e cyber is in Ultratech and Bio-tech. UT also has more armor and rules for disguised armor that is very useful for cyberpunk.

Incidentally, this "soft" clothing armor helps balance melee against guns. It's base 12/4 which is DR 12 against Piercing and Cutting but only DR 4 against everything else.

Yup the book is positively ancient. It's... for getting the feel of the setting only at this point it's so dated. The cybernetics prices both in points and $ don't mate up very well. My campaign I'm going with the ultra tech rules $1k per character point and using their general guide for rules on how many points something costs. Working on a regeneration implant which will be stupid expensive but it's a way humans can "catch up" so to speak with vampires.

The tailored armor is something I'm really thinking about and sorting how to offer it in a quick digestible way for my players during session zero as their starting armor. I'd prefer it would be 8/4 as starting armor (so enemies with regular rounds in pistols could at least hurt them) but we can use AP rounds or something lol.

[Inky]

I'm not sure about any of the following.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

It might have been me taking MBurr0003's statement on page 3 too to heart. He made three assertions with this sort of thing.

1) "no 10-15 is normal."

2) "I would not recommend allowing more than +3 over normal."

3) "don't have more powerful than 5d weapons. " (again with the "we have a monster manual full of cool baddies to fight that you should totally never ever ever ever put in game. They are just for looking at, not for playing against. There are plenty of small arms like battle rifles and tl9 assault rifles that do 6d+ damage)

You add in other commenters supporting statements like

"lots of things die when they get shot, that's sort of the point."

And I walked away with the distinct impression that even if it wasn't EXPRESSLY against the rules, it was against their spirit. There are additional statements expressing the doubts of the effectiveness of increased HP but... well having 30hp so you need to lose 20 before the game rules say "alright you can't roll successful defenses anymore!" is preeeeetttttyyyy effective...

Well. There's another joking expression you'll hear around here besides "That Other Game" - "the Cult of Stat Normalisation". That means that some people think it's awkward to let mundane human PCs have very high or low attributes, or only very rarely, because it gets a bit silly - so no DX 16 (unless the character is specifically supposed to be a world-class athlete) or IQ 23, and no HP 25 because a human only has so much tissue so where's it coming from?

However, not every GM and not every game subscribes to that way of thinking. You'll notice that several of the example characters in the Iconic Characters section in Basic Set have an attribute at 16 or more, even the humans. And the Dungeon Fantasy series seems to take attributes like that for granted for heroic dungeon delvers - which is one way that their characters are routinely 250 points or more. Some people on here have mentioned that in some games they've ditched even the "all humans of roughly the same size have roughly the same amount of HP" rule of thumb.

Not that it applies to your game anyway, as some people have mentioned - your PCs aren't mundane humans, so it makes perfect sense for some of them to have superhumanly high HP, even if you care whether things make sense or not.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Imagine I have this big monster manual full of baddies. (I do actually "creatures of the night", got it specifically because this campaign has supernatural horrors. ) Then I flip through dismayed because my players wouldn't ever EVER conceivably be able to face these things without a fair chance of instant death even if they have 500 points because of things like " players should be in the 10-13 hp range, never over 20" the extreme damage ect.

Your response is "well the game is fundamentally incapable of handling those cool encounters. You can only plausibly allow your players to confront giant rats, and maybe a dog but never a hellhound. "

You talk as if you're thinking in terms of the D&D model where one of the main ways characters get stronger and become able to fight bigger monsters as they level up is by gaining more HP. Well, as far as I can tell, the only thing you have to do to make GURPS work like that, if you want to, is to allow players to spend accumulated points on buying more HP (it's only 2 points per point), and there's actually nothing against that in the rules besides a vague admonition not to let players spend accumulated points on things that don't make logical sense unless you don't mind it not making logical sense. It doesn't seem to be the usual playstyle for GURPS - it's more common to keep the HP mostly fixed but increase skills and advantages so you get hit less and/or survive apparently-deadly hits better - but I can't see that it would break anything, since GURPS is designed to allow for monsters and superheroes with lots of HP without the rules malfunctioning.

Originally Posted by Rupert

I've offered advice as best I can, but really I think you're over-selling the problem. Have you run an adventure for a few sessions, as a test run, to see how much of a problem it actually is in play? Or fought out some scenarios, with the character having various advantages and builds to see what works and what doesn't?

Yeah, I'm not sure whether Colonel_Klink has done any test combats yet - there seems to be a lot of arguing back and forth "it would play out like this" "no it wouldn't play out like this" about his scenario, so doing a few test runs, if they haven't yet, might clear up some of that rather than argue about what might hypothetically happen.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

UT also has more armor and rules for disguised armor that is very useful for cyberpunk.

Incidentally, this "soft" clothing armor helps balance melee against guns. It's base 12/4 which is DR 12 against Piercing and Cutting but only DR 4 against everything else.

Ooh, that looks interesting.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

The tailored armor is something I'm really thinking about and sorting how to offer it in a quick digestible way for my players during session zero as their starting armor. I'd prefer it would be 8/4 as starting armor (so enemies with regular rounds in pistols could at least hurt them) but we can use AP rounds or something lol.

You can offer them 'old-dated' TL8 'early concealable vests' (from High-Tech), and have the bad guys only shoot for centre of mass (the Torso), and introduce aimed shots for elsewhere and random hit locations later on. Also, tailored armour from UT can be made thinner, so rather than DR12/4* armoured jackets and trousers, give them 'light' armoured long underwear with DR8/3* (and try to avoid head, hand, and foot hits, though adding armoured shoes, gloves, and an armoured beanie will cover everything but the face and neck).

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Inky

Yeah, I'm not sure whether Colonel_Klink has done any test combats yet - there seems to be a lot of arguing back and forth "it would play out like this" "no it wouldn't play out like this" about his scenario, so doing a few test runs, if they haven't yet, might clear up some of that rather than argue about what might hypothetically happen.

He did do a test combat, in which a couple of skill 10 mooks accidentally headshot a test PC, in part due to two rules errors: treating skull as -5 instead of -7, and allowing 3 to crit succeed even with an effective skill below 3. On learning about the first error, the good Colonel said that assuaged some of his discomfort; he did not comment on the second error, which should have made the headshot impossible even if it were armed at the face. (Because there was a -3 range penalty.)

[hal]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

The only "cyberpunk" book ever made for Gurps was early 90s and so early 3e.. It mentions the Secret Service incident on the cover.

"Modern 4e cyber is in Ultratech and Bio-tech. UT also has more armor and rules for disguised armor that is very useful for cyberpunk.

Incidentally, this "soft" clothing armor helps balance melee against guns. It's base 12/4 which is DR 12 against Piercing and Cutting but only DR 4 against everything else.

Pyramid articles for past/modern/future armor also exist, such that you can develop your own Cyberpunk era armor. Here is one such suit of armor I crafted using those pyramid rules:


ARASAKA Limited SPYDER COAT:
Designed from a more utilitarian styled light “Duster” style coat, the Arasaka Spyder coat was designed with an eye towards a more fashionable “overcoat” than anything else. Made of the finest synthetic Arachnoweave, this coat will cover up to half of the throat if the collar is pulled up, otherwise none of the throat if pulled down. In addition, it covers the entirety of the users arms and torso, right down to the user’s knees. Available in many colors and as of this time, 14 different patterns, the Spyder Coat released Fall of 2047, will be a good addition to any executive’s clothing wardrobe. This clothing is for discriminating buyers whose wealth demands both style and functionality. Anyone who recognizes this as an Arasaka Limited, will usually be suitably impressed – as the coat itself is almost as expensive as a small car.

Cost: $39,000
Weight: 8.2 lbs

Game specifics: This armor can be targeted using the chinks in armor rules. Its DR is 24/6 – 24 against bullets, and 6 against other forms of attacks. Time to don is 3 seconds for full DR, or 2 seconds but with a gap in armor with a DR 0 (the front being unbuttoned/unzipped) that is visible from the front.

Note: the standard Overcoat used by Arasaka employees or Guards costs as little as $9,800 for essentially the same stats. The difference between the Spyder Coat and the workman's duster is a matter of status. Wearing a Standard Arasaka Duster as a common workman will not gain the +3 bonus for wealth that the Spyder Coat does.


Arachnoweave Balaclava - covers the face, skull, and neck, leaving only the eyes exposed. Comes in multiple colors such as black, grey, white, along with urban camouflage and battlefield camouflage patterns of various nations.

Cost: $1,300
Weight: 2.2 lbs

DR 24/

Unlike the Duster style armor, the balaclava does not suffer from chinks in armor rule.


You won't find these in the GURPS ULTRATECH because they are built using the Pyramid rules I've alluded to in the past. It is simple work to craft an excel spreadsheet that permits one to handle ALL of the calculations on the fly where you simply select an armor material, fit type, character weight (in case you want to have fitted armor for someone who is 210 lbs instead of the stock standard 150 lbs.) along with the area you want covered. I've set mine up so that I can either have coverage for an entire area such as Torso, or I can simply armor just parts of the torso.

The spreadsheet is not hard to create. Google how to create drop down lists in Excel, along with liberal use of Vlookup, and you can easily create a database of armor materials, weight per DR, cost per pound, etc - until the entire spreadsheet can do all the grunt work for you.