Help a noobie understand critical hits

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

I ran 2 PCs through around 15-20 sessions of 1920s noir investigations, including multiple shoot-outs with tommy guns, Browning automatic rifles, and other nasty ordnance.

Neither PC had more than 10 HP, DX over 13, HT over 11, or Combat Reflexes. Their only armor was some DR 5 semi-bullet proof vests. They both did have Luck, but we started from the Action! templates and all of those have Luck. To my memory, I didn't fudge any die rolls.

The PCs survived by using their superior senses to avoid ambushes, taking cover when necessary, and careful shooting of their .38 caliber revolvers. Frankie may have used Rapier Wit a couple of times to flummox foes at close range.

I think you had a bad experience with a test combat, and you're overreacting to the potential lethality. If the PC had Luck, they could have canceled that critical hit. Luck, Destiny Points, or spending CP to buy successes (or cancel other people's criticals, see Basic p 347) give PCs a lot of flexibility to get out of a jam, and that means there are a lot of different ways to build characters in practice.

Instead of having to invent rule after rule after rule after rule to special plead a way out of a problem, wouldn't the solution to be to... solve the problem? Just.... reduce the damage so that you aren't seeing 20d6 potential damage?

I mean I COULD warn all my characters that they *MUST* have luck and this. and that.. and just... fill out their character sheets so they are all the same and say "there! Write your name here." Or... we could increase the margin for failure in the game buy reducing the ridiculous scale of damage and not need special pleading rules to come in and save the day...

I'd rather not watch all the fun and joy fade from my players eyes when I tell them because I liked so many of gurps mechanics all their characters are going to be the same build...

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

And yeah, I can allow my characters 30-40 whatever HP because the setting has cybernetics and vampirism to justify it. HOWEVER everyone is harping on this realism thing and stressing in the past pages that normally you do not allow such things...

Literally nobody but you has suggested 30 HP is an appropriate response. Soaking damage with HP is not the first choice in GURPS, it's something for specialists.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Ah well... it looks like all my players will need to have luck... Their character sheets will all look eerily similar... That or I don't put a single rifle in the game, nothing cool yknow?

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

But 40HP, Luck, Combat relfexes and all the same feats. I think we answered the question. Margin of error so razer thin you *must* take that advantage. There's no other choice. Seems... flawed to me.

Feats? Are you playing D&D now or something?

Luck and Combat Reflexes are recommended for all combat protagonists, yes. I don't understand what about this you're objecting to. What do you lose by having the same advantage appear on multiple character sheets?

Are you also unhappy that a lot of your PCs will probably have Guns and increased DX?

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Literally nobody but you has suggested 30 HP is an appropriate response. Soaking damage with HP is not the first choice in GURPS, it's something for specialists.


Feats? Are you playing D&D now or something?

Luck and Combat Reflexes are recommended for all combat protagonists, yes. I don't understand what about this you're objecting to. What do you lose by having the same advantage appear on multiple character sheets?

Are you also unhappy that a lot of your PCs will probably have Guns and increased DX?

feats/ advantages same thing. And y'know, *taps title of thread*

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem. "no no that dice roll didn't count." That's not a solution to the problem, it's papering over it. Allowing the players to do that by spending points or the GM just rolling his dice twice because he's unwilling to let his players get insta killed, it's the same thing.

I'm not even saying I don't want luck in the game. I'm saying THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A GAME THAT REQUIRES DICE ROLL FUDGING.

The other recommended solution was... allow the PCs to be so powerful and scale the encounters so the enemy doesn't get to fight back before they are all well on the ropes or dead (the offense being the best defense argument.) So my players get bored as they don't feel any threat or challenge because if the enemy fights back and has anything other than the crappiest weapon they CAN potentially get that hit...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Ah well... it looks like all my players will need to have luck... Their character sheets will all look eerily similar... That or I don't put a single rifle in the game, nothing cool yknow?

Many GM's (and players) consider Luck to basically be a required purchase for PC's, because as you note it really sucks to lose because of a single unlucky roll. Heck, you could just give it as a campaign Advantage for free, leaving them able to spend the entirety of whatever points you give them on whatever they'd like (although from your previous comments, it sounds like they're largely all going for quasi-speedsters, so they're likely to wind up with similar sheets regardless).

Now, this doesn't mean you truly have to buy Luck. There are other routes to keep your character alive - and sometimes, keeping your character alive isn't even the point anyway. But it is a trait that gives you a lot of bang for your buck.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

And yeah, I can allow my characters 30-40 whatever HP because the setting has cybernetics and vampirism to justify it. HOWEVER everyone is harping on this realism thing and stressing in the past pages that normally you do not allow such things...

Massless HP is certainly an option. You might also consider Vitality Reserve; personally I'd fluff this the same way high HP is fluffed in That Other Game - it represents near-misses, grazes, etc, rather than the character simply no-selling a hit.

Originally Posted by Anthony

In most cinematic settings guns are perceived as dangerous but are very rarely actually effective. This is not something GURPS handles well (though most other game systems don't do a lot better, it's hard to manage "looks dangerous but actually isn't" in a rule set).

There are some options in GURPS to mimic the effect somewhat (of course, the real reason guns are rarely effective is that the way the author decides if a character gets hit, and if so how badly wounded they are, is entirely by fiat... which doesn't work well for a game). Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy ensures the first shots by the enemy will always miss. Flesh Wounds turns a deadly headshot into a grazing wound to the shoulder. Gun Control Law means the OpFor only attacks with firearms if the PC's are using firearms (otherwise they'll only use them for threats and as improvised bludgeons). Vitality Reserve, above, functionally gives the character a narrative force field (renaming the trait Plot Armor wouldn't be entirely inappropriate) to keep them alive longer, but with a limit to how much harm it can prevent - and note you should be able to get it cheaper if you limit it to only apply against firearms. Nothing but GM fudging will truly replicate the effect in most media, because otherwise there's always the chance of a string of bad luck that kills a major character.


Another option, which really isn't mentioned anywhere in the GURPS canon that I'm aware of, is to treat all fatal wounds on PC's as inflicting the Mortally Wounded condition (and possibly ignoring the rules about needing to roll against HT from time to time to stay alive - the character basically goes into the same sort of "Wounded" condition one sees in JRPG's until they receive treatment from the setting's equivalent of a Phoenix Down). Yes, even if the character gets shot in the head by .50 BMG (average of around 160 HP Injury without armor), they cannot exceed Mortally Wounded. If the rest of the party emerges victorious, great, now they can get their friend the medical assistance needed. If the rest of the party is beaten (or flees and leaves the "dead" character behind), OpFor can treat the character in hopes of getting information out of them, publicly executing them, putting them on trial, or whatever - leaving the party the chance to escape (or mount a rescue). The player can opt to simply let their character die on a failed Death Check, particularly if it would be dramatically appropriate, but otherwise as long as it's not breaking anyone's immersion, PC death simply does not happen. That would be on the extreme end, but easily doable.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

feats/ advantages same thing. And y'know, *taps title of thread*

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem. "no no that dice roll didn't count." That's not a solution to the problem, it's papering over it. Allowing the players to do that by spending points or the GM just rolling his dice twice because he's unwilling to let his players get insta killed, it's the same thing.

I'm not even saying I don't want luck in the game. I'm saying THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A GAME THAT REQUIRES DICE ROLL FUDGING.

The other recommended solution was... allow the PCs to be so powerful and scale the encounters so the enemy doesn't get to fight back before they are all well on the ropes or dead (the offense being the best defense argument.) So my players get bored as they don't feel any threat or challenge because if the enemy fights back and has anything other than the crappiest weapon they CAN potentially get that hit...

You seem to be missing the option that people die in lethal combat. If you don't want lethal combat, that's what TV Acrion Violence is for.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem. "no no that dice roll didn't count." That's not a solution to the problem, it's papering over it. Allowing the players to do that by spending points or the GM just rolling his dice twice because he's unwilling to let his players get insta killed, it's the same thing.

I'm not even saying I don't want luck in the game. I'm saying THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A GAME THAT REQUIRES DICE ROLL FUDGING.

To me it seems like the perfect solution. Being too lucky to get shot is exactly how non-bulletproof protagonists in all the media do it. And real people. It's the only countermeasure!

(There are, of course, plenty of unreal countermeasures you can use in GURPS when you want to, which I think you've been exposed to.)

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

The other recommended solution was... allow the PCs to be so powerful and scale the encounters so the enemy doesn't get to fight back before they are all well on the ropes or dead (the offense being the best defense argument.) So my players get bored as they don't feel any threat or challenge because if the enemy fights back and has anything other than the crappiest weapon they CAN potentially get that hit...

You still want Luck with that, otherwise Batman might just get shot in the face by a mugger.

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Many GM's (and players) consider Luck to basically be a required purchase for PC's, because as you note it really sucks to lose because of a single unlucky roll. Heck, you could just give it as a campaign Advantage for free, leaving them able to spend the entirety of whatever points you give them on whatever they'd like (although from your previous comments, it sounds like they're largely all going for quasi-speedsters, so they're likely to wind up with similar sheets regardless).

Now, this doesn't mean you truly have to buy Luck. There are other routes to keep your character alive - and sometimes, keeping your character alive isn't even the point anyway. But it is a trait that gives you a lot of bang for your buck.



Massless HP is certainly an option. You might also consider Vitality Reserve; personally I'd fluff this the same way high HP is fluffed in That Other Game - it represents near-misses, grazes, etc, rather than the character simply no-selling a hit.



There are some options in GURPS to mimic the effect somewhat (of course, the real reason guns are rarely effective is that the way the author decides if a character gets hit, and if so how badly wounded they are, is entirely by fiat... which doesn't work well for a game). Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy ensures the first shots by the enemy will always miss. Flesh Wounds turns a deadly headshot into a grazing wound to the shoulder. Gun Control Law means the OpFor only attacks with firearms if the PC's are using firearms (otherwise they'll only use them for threats and as improvised bludgeons). Vitality Reserve, above, functionally gives the character a narrative force field (renaming the trait Plot Armor wouldn't be entirely inappropriate) to keep them alive longer, but with a limit to how much harm it can prevent - and note you should be able to get it cheaper if you limit it to only apply against firearms. Nothing but GM fudging will truly replicate the effect in most media, because otherwise there's always the chance of a string of bad luck that kills a major character.


Another option, which really isn't mentioned anywhere in the GURPS canon that I'm aware of, is to treat all fatal wounds on PC's as inflicting the Mortally Wounded condition (and possibly ignoring the rules about needing to roll against HT from time to time to stay alive - the character basically goes into the same sort of "Wounded" condition one sees in JRPG's until they receive treatment from the setting's equivalent of a Phoenix Down). Yes, even if the character gets shot in the head by .50 BMG (average of around 160 HP Injury without armor), they cannot exceed Mortally Wounded. If the rest of the party emerges victorious, great, now they can get their friend the medical assistance needed. If the rest of the party is beaten (or flees and leaves the "dead" character behind), OpFor can treat the character in hopes of getting information out of them, publicly executing them, putting them on trial, or whatever - leaving the party the chance to escape (or mount a rescue). The player can opt to simply let their character die on a failed Death Check, particularly if it would be dramatically appropriate, but otherwise as long as it's not breaking anyone's immersion, PC death simply does not happen. That would be on the extreme end, but easily doable.

The interesting thing is how people here say "the other game" like saying "he who must not be named" or "you know who" like it's voldemort or something.

Guys... the reason why I went to gurps is the core structure of the game allows me to build the unvierse I want. Sneering at the other game because "well it's not like our game, it's not "realistic"" is just... silly. If you want total realism that's great! But a universal role playing system shouldn't demand that I play hyper realism with the rest of you. It's astounding to me how the folks replying are absolutely against the idea of just softening things up, increasing the margin of error by stepping back from "realism" for fun. It's pretty silly to be so obsessed with realism when I'm talking about magic and vampires in the first place...

Right now it's so tweaked toward realism, so impossibly pushed in that direction that players use dice fudging to make up for the absolute lack of forgivness. That's... A problem guys.

No, I don't need to give luck as a free advantage, as gm I can re roll any bad roll I want to. What I want is to set up an experience where i don't have to. Where if they screw up this roll and fail intimidate there's another option, and there's another option beyond that to get the info. They could take more than one path and we don't have to re-roll. It happens though, the less experienced the gm the more he has to do it... but the GOAL is not to have to do it at all. The GOAL is an entire experience where no one player or gm *needs* to fudge rolls, then suddenly luck is a fun advantage. It's not something you call out of desperation, but something that brings light and life to a game funnily like unlucky would.

[sir_pudding]

So use TV Action Violence or Survivable Guns or something.

[JulianLW]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

However... When I look at the core rule book I don't see many advantages that actually improve survivability (for humans, vampries can have unliving ) other than combat reflexes. There's hard to kill / fit but that doesn't really do anything about -50 HP and that's pretty easy to get into when the bad guy rolls a crit hit (first combat I did I had two bad guys armed with tl8 9mm pistols WITH A SKILL OF 10, one rolled 3 while aiming at the head due to most of the rest being behind cover... as a dm I had to fudge that "no no! your arm is exposed too! he actually was aiming for that!" Therefore I got to roll 2d6, not 8d6 for damage... I'm sorry but a mid level 250 point character under threat of "roll save vs death" from ONE lucky hit is what i'm worried about here. It's stressful painful, obnoxious gameplay. He wouldn't even have gotten to roll save vs death if it was a rifle doing 5d6 damage getting a crit headshot so it's now doing 20d6 damage. Sorry but at a certain point it's downright ridiculous. )

....

So, Luck. As lots of folks have been saying.

But also, the average roll for a d6 is 3.5.

So a head shot from a 9mm pistol that does 2d+2 pi is likely to end up doing 36 damage to the head, minus 2 for natural head DR, for 34 final head injury. A PC with 12 HP is going to have to make only 1 death check with that damage.

And if the PC has HT 12, they're probably going to survive that death check - and end up living, if a teammate can get them to a hospital. And that's for a regular human who has slightly above average (i.e. adventurer) stats. ST 12 and HT 12 is only 40 of those 250 points.... And you still haven't used that Luck advantage, which would have forced Farmer Brown to reroll that 3. (And as folks have pointed out, the chance that Farmer Brown is going to roll a 3 is 1 in 216.)

In my opinion, the game is a lot cooler when you get shot in the head and still manage to come back to tell the tale than when a GM fudges dice rolls that probably didn't need to be fudged in the first place.

Again, in my opinion, the game is a lot more fun when there's a real chance of getting shot in the head by Farmer Brown and having it be game over - except that you're just a little bit tougher than a random zero point guy.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I'm sorry that I'm pretty disappointed that the game when it comes to firearms is so fundamentally broken and flawed it requires a special pleading mechanics to fix the problem.

There exist a large number of ways to tone down firearms if realistic deadliness doesn't fit your campaign, as has been noted. And yes, your idea if nerfing all guns is indeed an option, it's just that most players are going to be rather disappointed when they make a gun-toting PC and the GM arms them with a pea-shooter. As I stated earlier, if your players are fine with 1d pistols and 2d(2) rifles, go for it. Of course, when one of your PC's takes a maximum-damage rifle shot to the Skull and dies instantly from the resulting 44 HP Injury (which calls for 3 death checks for anyone with HP 11 or lower, 2 for anyone with HP 14 or lower, and one for anyone with HP 22 or lower), you'll still be in the same boat...

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

I'm not even saying I don't want luck in the game. I'm saying THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH A GAME THAT REQUIRES DICE ROLL FUDGING.

GURPS doesn't require dice roll fudging... but it can result in dice rolls you don't like. It's hard to find a game that can't without fudging. When I first played an introductory adventure in Pathfinder, the first attack of the first round of the first (and only) serious combat in the module (everything else was stuff like an imp who did subdual damage and I think some giant rats who had anemic bites) was a maximum damage critical hit from a greataxe, and killed the unlucky PC outright (the table decided he wound up split straight down the middle, from crown to groin, and comically fell to either side). Stuff like that happens when dice are being rolled.

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

The other recommended solution was... allow the PCs to be so powerful and scale the encounters so the enemy doesn't get to fight back before they are all well on the ropes or dead (the offense being the best defense argument.) So my players get bored as they don't feel any threat or challenge because if the enemy fights back and has anything other than the crappiest weapon they CAN potentially get that hit...

Many players find it fun to basically set up the situation so they can overwhelm OpFor (positioning everyone for an ambush, say). If what your players prefer is a more direct confrontation, obviously that isn't going to work, so giving them traits that make surviving - and winning - a direct confrontation would work well. You can also use the suggested cinematic options - TV Action Violence, which I forgot about until sir_pudding referenced it, makes it so that players have the option to negate a hit (particularly a lethal one) by burning 1 FP and losing their next turn. Naturally, if you don't like any of the available options, you'll need to come up with your own - as I've stated before, your firearm downgrade could certainly work.