Help a noobie understand critical hits

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

This thread is evidence that GURPS handles it very well indeed.

No, it isn't evidence for anything of the kind. Handling it well would probably be something like "injury cannot exceed margin of success on the attack roll, nor can it exceed margin of failure on the defense roll; critical hits do not exist (though a low roll does increase MOS)".

[Ulzgoroth]

I'd like to ask if the OP has a further question outside the dispute about (gun) damage, because if so we might be able to give an answer to that that would be found useful.

Originally Posted by Anthony

In most cinematic settings guns are perceived as dangerous but are very rarely actually effective. This is not something GURPS handles well (though most other game systems don't do a lot better, it's hard to manage "looks dangerous but actually isn't" in a rule set).

Which settings fit that?

In a cinematic action work about human-equivalents where guns exist, I generally expect protagonists to use guns, and to do so frequently and successfully.

I expect guns to be infrequently used successfully against protagonists, because the work acknowledges that that would be a serious consequence so it can only happen in service to the plot rather than as fight choreography sugar. But characters who don't need to make it to the next scene will be available to demonstrate that the gun does do its job as expected.

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

One of the foundations of this is that "realistic" humans (who are probably built on a base of 25 pts excepting Social advantages) will always have the same relationship to threats. If they travel to another world it won't be a peculiar one where guns do different damage.

No one is telling you that you can't have PCs built on many more pts and who thus don't have the same relationship to threats.

Make your PCs tougher and more capable. Don't shrink and soften your world.

There's also a specific note about the "halve firearms damage and halve armor values" option. This will ahve the effectiveness of any firearms in the PCs' hands and probably annoy them mightily.

TBH I was originally planning on 250 points.

However... When I look at the core rule book I don't see many advantages that actually improve survivability (for humans, vampries can have unliving ) other than combat reflexes. There's hard to kill / fit but that doesn't really do anything about -50 HP and that's pretty easy to get into when the bad guy rolls a crit hit (first combat I did I had two bad guys armed with tl8 9mm pistols WITH A SKILL OF 10, one rolled 3 while aiming at the head due to most of the rest being behind cover... as a dm I had to fudge that "no no! your arm is exposed too! he actually was aiming for that!" Therefore I got to roll 2d6, not 8d6 for damage... I'm sorry but a mid level 250 point character under threat of "roll save vs death" from ONE lucky hit is what i'm worried about here. It's stressful painful, obnoxious gameplay. He wouldn't even have gotten to roll save vs death if it was a rifle doing 5d6 damage getting a crit headshot so it's now doing 20d6 damage. Sorry but at a certain point it's downright ridiculous. )

Players aren't allowed to have a large pool of hitpoints. That's not realistic (it also poses a problem for the melee weapons. ) If I were to follow that logic there's a ceiling on their HT and DX...

lets say this wasn't a cybernetics laden campaign. What WOULD they spend points on? Skill points in knitting? If they can't have 30 hitpoints why would it be allowable to let them have a speed of 18? (which again doesn't protect them from a critical hit hurtling them fighteningly close to death in one single bad dice roll even though they literally spent 260 points on it... )

Fortunately I can do lots of things with cybernetics, higher dr, new rules of death similar to vampire topor if they have the right cyberwear.......... but in a campaign setting set in the 1950s? Well the players better have magic! Because 500 points doesn't seem to be enough to save em without the DM fudging things a little!

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

In a cinematic action work about human-equivalents where guns exist, I generally expect protagonists to use guns, and to do so frequently and successfully.

I would expect them to be able to mow down mooks with guns. I would also expect them to be able to mow down mooks with their fists.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

TBH I was originally planning on 250 points.

However... When I look at the core rule book I don't see many advantages that actually improve survivability (for humans, vampries can have unliving ) other than combat reflexes. There's hard to kill / fit but that doesn't really do anything about -50 HP and that's pretty easy to get into when the bad guy rolls a crit hit (first combat I did I had two bad guys armed with tl8 9mm pistols WITH A SKILL OF 10, one rolled 3 while aiming at the head due to most of the rest being behind cover... as a dm I had to fudge that "no no! your arm is exposed too! he actually was aiming for that!" Therefore I got to roll 2d6, not 8d6 for damage... I'm sorry but a mid level 250 point character under threat of "roll save vs death" from ONE lucky hit is what i'm worried about here. It's stressful painful, obnoxious gameplay. )

Check out both Enhanced Dodge and extra Speed. Hypothetically, if your GM lets you dump 210 of your 250 points into Combat Reflexes [15], Enhanced Dodge [15], and Speed +9.00 [180], with 40 points left over for other stuff like guns, you'll have Speed 14, Move 14, and Dodge 19. Before Farmer Joe can pull the trigger you'll already have shot him, and you'll also dodge 98% of the non-critical hits rolled against you.

That's just an illustration, not necessarily the best way to invest your points. Luck, DR, high Stealth, high HP, and high weapon skill so you can kill enemies with high offense (a.k.a. the best defense) are all good choices too, plus supernatural stuff like Unkillable and Regeneration.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

TBH I was originally planning on 250 points.

However... When I look at the core rule book I don't see many advantages that actually improve survivability (for humans, vampries can have unliving ) other than combat reflexes. There's hard to kill / fit but that doesn't really do anything about -50 HP and that's pretty easy to get into when the bad guy rolls a crit hit (first combat I did I had two bad guys armed with tl8 9mm pistols WITH A SKILL OF 10, one rolled 3 while aiming at the head due to most of the rest being behind cover... as a dm I had to fudge that "no no! your arm is exposed too! he actually was aiming for that!" Therefore I got to roll 2d6, not 8d6 for damage... Yes the character MIGHT have survived the headshot if the critical damage table was in his favor, he passed his survival and stay awake rolls... all of that but one hit taking him to -30HP is just... Yeah... )

Players aren't allowed to have a large pool of hitpoints. That's not realistic (it also poses a problem for the melee weapons. ) If I were to follow that logic there's a ceiling on their HT and DX...

Nonsense.

You can have 20 HP, though most humans shouldn't. If you acknowledge that combat reflexes helps, you have to acknowledge that buying up Basic Speed or Enhanced Defenses to get more dodge also helps. You can buy a bunch of HT, which makes you ludicrously hard to actually put down. You can buy Acrobatics skill to perform Acrobatic Dodges, which I imagine La Gata Encantada would have. And that Basic Speed comes with extra Basic Move to avoid getting stuck in a bad position.

And, of course, you can buy Ridiculous Luck, to deny things like that natural 3.


(Though you also typically would spend a lot of those stuff that helps you make sure nobody gets more than one shot at you before you happen to them, in whatever style your character practices.)

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Fortunately I can do lots of things with cybernetics, higher dr, new rules of death similar to vampire topor if they have the right cyberwear.......... but in a campaign setting set in the 1950s? Well the players better have magic! Because 500 points doesn't seem to be enough to save em without the DM fudging things a little!

Have you, at any point, acknowledged that Luck exists?

[Colonel__Klink]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Nonsense.

You can have 20 HP, though most humans shouldn't. If you acknowledge that combat reflexes helps, you have to acknowledge that buying up Basic Speed or Enhanced Defenses to get more dodge also helps. You can buy a bunch of HT, which makes you ludicrously hard to actually put down. You can buy Acrobatics skill to perform Acrobatic Dodges, which I imagine La Gata Encantada would have. And that Basic Speed comes with extra Basic Move to avoid getting stuck in a bad position.

And, of course, you can buy Ridiculous Luck, to deny things like that natural 3.


(Though you also typically would spend a lot of those stuff that helps you make sure nobody gets more than one shot at you before you happen to them, in whatever style your character practices.)

Have you, at any point, acknowledged that Luck exists?

Ah well... it looks like all my players will need to have luck... Their character sheets will all look eerily similar... That or I don't put a single rifle in the game, nothing cool yknow?

And yeah, I can allow my characters 30-40 whatever HP because the setting has cybernetics and vampirism to justify it. HOWEVER everyone is harping on this realism thing and stressing in the past pages that normally you do not allow such things...

But 40HP, Luck, Combat relfexes and all the same feats. I think we answered the question. Margin of error so razer thin you *must* take that advantage. There's no other choice. Seems... flawed to me.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Guns are very effective in cinematic settings EXCEPT when the script needs different.

Another way of putting it is that guns are very effective in cinematic settings except when used against major characters. So the trick is giving major characters counters against guns.

[mlangsdorf]

I ran 2 PCs through around 15-20 sessions of 1920s noir investigations, including multiple shoot-outs with tommy guns, Browning automatic rifles, and other nasty ordnance.

Neither PC had more than 10 HP, DX over 13, HT over 11, or Combat Reflexes. Their only armor was some DR 5 semi-bullet proof vests. They both did have Luck, but we started from the Action! templates and all of those have Luck. To my memory, I didn't fudge any die rolls.

The PCs survived by using their superior senses to avoid ambushes, taking cover when necessary, and careful shooting of their .38 caliber revolvers. Frankie may have used Rapier Wit a couple of times to flummox foes at close range.

I think you had a bad experience with a test combat, and you're overreacting to the potential lethality. If the PC had Luck, they could have canceled that critical hit. Luck, Destiny Points, or spending CP to buy successes (or cancel other people's criticals, see Basic p 347) give PCs a lot of flexibility to get out of a jam, and that means there are a lot of different ways to build characters in practice.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Colonel__Klink

Ah well... it looks like all my players will need to have luck... Their character sheets will all look eerily similar... That or I don't put a single rifle in the game, nothing cool yknow?

And yeah, I can allow my characters 30-40 whatever HP because the setting has cybernetics and vampirism to justify it. HOWEVER everyone is harping on this realism thing and stressing in the past pages that normally you do not allow such things...

But 40HP, Luck, Combat relfexes and all the same feats. I think we answered the question. Margin of error so razer thin you *must* take that advantage. There's no other choice. Seems... flawed to me.

There are some alternatives to Luck but they are genre-dependent: a Bless spell requires a setting with magic, Destiny Points are only for cinematic action campaigns AFAIK, Injury Reduction and Unkillable are supernatural, decoy illusions require holograms or magic, etc.

But Luck or its equivalent is incredibly common for protagonists in war movies, urban fantasy novels, superhero comics, etc. Protagonists often barely escape horribly lethal deaths through sheer luck.

(Even Dungeons and Dragons often defaults to explaining PC survival as "HP are luck/plot armor," although other DMs view them as something real such as life force. It's controversial.)

Maybe you'll wind up with one guy with Combat Reflexes and crazy-high Guns skill and Speed, one Unkillable vampire who can turn into mist and phase through walls, one cyborg armored like an M1 Abrams tank, and one wizard who can turn the others invisible and Great Haste them or let them fly or scout ahead with Wizard Eye. Even if they all have Luck they'll still feel different.