Fencer and Weapons Expert: Bonus to Defend

[Axly Suregrip]

These talents have a Bonus to Defend and it states:
"Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against a Fencer who
has weapon(s) in hand are at -1 DX. If a Fencer chooses
the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when
attacking."

I take this to mean
a) the DX -1 happens when attacking.
b) the extra die when defending.

but, when defending does the DX -1 still apply or has it been replaced by the extra die?

I have been playing they get both when defending but now I am rethinking how these stack.

[hcobb]

Fencer plus Shield Expertise doing defend (with the rapier) is -2 to be hit, 5/DX to hit and on a hit the small shield stops 2 hits.

This means that by https://www.hcobb.com/tft/TFT_Saving...rcentages.html base DX 13 or less has a 5.88% chance of a hit and a 9.8% chance of dropping or breaking their weapon.

So a ST 20 Fire elemental will be defended to death in an average of 60 turns while landing 3.5 blows for an average of 6 total damage on the fencer. (Just don't let it get into HTH.)

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

These talents have a Bonus to Defend and it states:
"Bonus to defend. All melee attacks against a Fencer who
has weapon(s) in hand are at -1 DX. If a Fencer chooses
the Defend option, attackers must roll an extra die when
attacking."

I take this to mean
a) the DX -1 happens when attacking.
b) the extra die when defending.

but, when defending does the DX -1 still apply or has it been replaced by the extra die?

I have been playing they get both when defending but now I am rethinking how these stack.

My groups have played it with both the DX penalty to attacks made against the Fencer AND the extra die. But, I agree that it is best if they don't stack, because if they do stack, the -3DX to attacks against a Master Fencer who is defending effectively makes it a 7d roll (4d for Defend, plus two extra dice for Master Fencer, and a -3DX penalty which can be rounded to a an additional die) which is ridiculous. That is, unless we are reading Fencer incorrectly, and its mention of requiring an extra die for attacks against a Fencer who chooses to defend is just a reminder that the Defend option requires 4 dice.

I am growing to intensely dislike the Legacy Edition advanced combat talents. Adding a mere fifth die to attacks against a defending Fencer or Weapon Expert means that those who need to roll a 15 or under will only hit 30% of the time.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by Shostak

My groups have played it with both the DX penalty to attacks made against the Fencer AND the extra die. But, I agree that it is best if they don't stack, because if they do stack, the -3DX to attacks against a Master Fencer who is defending effectively makes it a 7d roll (4d for Defend, plus two extra dice for Master Fencer, and a -3DX penalty which can be rounded to a an additional die) which is ridiculous. That is, unless we are reading Fencer incorrectly, and its mention of requiring an extra die for attacks against a Fencer who chooses to defend is just a reminder that the Defend option requires 4 dice.

I am growing to intensely dislike the Legacy Edition advanced combat talents. Adding a mere fifth die to attacks against a defending Fencer or Weapon Expert means that those who need to roll a 15 or under will only hit 8% of the time.

They just needed to add one word to any one the four times the "bonus to defend" was mentioned. Either "instead" or "additionally" and the sentence adding the extra dice. Then it would be clear. As it is, the literal reading is that the DX minus is always, thus is also applied while defending. I like to do what rules say and seldom house-rule something unless it is very ambiguous. This is only slightly ambiguous but seems a heavy handed if taken literally.

A defending master is very hard to hit. Time to break out the bows.

BTW, I like the new talents. It adds another dimension for how fighters advance. I will continue to take this literally: Defending masters get both.

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Fencer plus Shield Expertise doing defend (with the rapier) is -2 to be hit, 5/DX to hit and on a hit the small shield stops 2 hits.

This means that by https://www.hcobb.com/tft/TFT_Saving...rcentages.html base DX 13 or less has a 5.88% chance of a hit and a 9.8% chance of dropping or breaking their weapon.

So a ST 20 Fire elemental will be defended to death in an average of 60 turns while landing 3.5 blows for an average of 6 total damage on the fencer. (Just don't let it get into HTH.)

Fire elemental can throw fireballs and hit the fencer with ease. Your point that the fencer is very hard to hit is true. The fire element example just did not fit your point as after its first attack it will switch to fireballs. Still damage -2 due to shield from the fireballs.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

Fire elemental can throw fireballs and hit the fencer with ease. Your point that the fencer is very hard to hit is true. The fire element example just did not fit your point as after its first attack it will switch to fireballs. Still damage -2 due to shield from the fireballs.

Dodge against the fireballs so that each 3d-3 fireball costs the elemental 3 fatigue and (assuming no range penalty) hits on a (13-1)/4d or 33.56% for an average of around 6 hits. As the elemental gets six shots it should just win that encounter. (Shield Expertise is the fighter's talent and needs to be taken a lot more often.)

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by hcobb

(Shield Expertise is the fighter's talent and needs to be taken a lot more often.)

I agree. I like the fact that a skilled warrior is deadlier than a brute.

And since it is not just one on one fights, having a brute has its advantages. In order to have the skilled warrior you must sacrifice some ST and/or DX. Maybe a trap has a DX save or poison bite has a ST save: the brute then has a slight edge. Overall, still better with the skills but I love that it is not one sided.