Odd Question in raising IQ.

[Ughbash]

Assuming a character has an IQ of 18, with a perception of 20?

Is it 20 points thus putting IQ at 19 and Perception at 21?
Is it 15 points putting IQ at 19, perception staying at 20?
Or is it 20 points putting IQ at 20 leaving perception at 20 and the character is out 5 points for not planning better?

[Armin]

It's the first one, generally. It's the second one if that's how your group/GM plays/allows. It should never be the last one.

[Varyon]

By default, +1 IQ - regardless of the source of it - also comes with a +1 to Per and a +1 to Will. Note this is the same for other attributes - +1 ST also comes with +1 HP, +1 DX or +1 HT comes with a +0.25 to Basic Speed (which also functionally comes with a +0.25 to Basic Move, although you generally round that down), and +1 HT comes with +1 FP. Some GM's divorce IQ from Per and Will while leaving the prices the same; others will allow purchase of what's often referred to as "IQ!" which is a metatrait consisting of +1 IQ [20], -1 Per [-5], and -1 Will [-5], for a net change of +1 to IQ, +0 to each of Per and Will, and a net cost of [10]. But those are houserules; the RAW is that, while you can buy Per and Will up or down from IQ, the three are linked, regardless of when you purchase them.

[Ughbash]

Normally yes, and I would tend to run it as option 1.

Only reason it came up is due to the line about perception in the basic book.

"By default, Per equals IQ, but you can increase it for 5 points per +1, or reduce it for -5 points per -1. You cannot raise Per past 20, or lower it by more than 4, without GM permission." (Basic page 16).

This seems to hard cap perception at 20...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Ughbash

Normally yes, and I would tend to run it as option 1.

Only reason it came up is due to the line about perception in the basic book.

"By default, Per equals IQ, but you can increase it for 5 points per +1, or reduce it for -5 points per -1. You cannot raise Per past 20, or lower it by more than 4, without GM permission." (Basic page 16).

This seems to hard cap perception at 20...

Oh, in that case, if the GM is enforcing that cap, you would indeed only pay [15] for +1 IQ, because it would only give +1 to IQ and Will, not to Per. Essentially you're "trading in" some of what you spent on Per to raise IQ (and Will) for a bit cheaper - instead of having +8 IQ [160] and +2 Per [10], you now have +9 IQ [180] and +1 Per [5].

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Ughbash

Assuming a character has an IQ of 18, with a perception of 20?

Or is it 20 points putting IQ at 20 leaving perception at 20 and the character is out 5 points for not planning better?

It would be IQ 19 and Per 20 and be out 5 points if the GM is holding to hard caps and not allowing the "buy down" of IQ by splitting out. This would also be "RAW" (Rules As Written).


However, as a few have noted, not many GMs in these parts hold to that. In my case in particular it would be that, but because I split Per and Will out of IQ and still keep IQ at 20 points... so it's less "out 5 points" and more "IQ and Per are separate attributes" in my games (because IQ is the super stat that is stupidly cheap for it does).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

It would be IQ 19 and Per 20 and be out 5 points if the GM is holding to hard caps and not allowing the "buy down" of IQ by splitting out. This would also be "RAW" (Rules As Written).

I don't think there's any support in the books for charging players points for a trait they don't get. A character who goes from
IQ 18 [160]
Will 18 [0]
Per 20 [10]

to

IQ 19 [180]
Will 19 [0]
Per 20 [5]

is perfectly RAW-legal. There are places in the book that even state that you can do quasi-respecs to change how points are distributed to be more efficient, so long as you don't lose capabilities - for example, see Improving Skills From Defaults, B173 - you can switch the direction of a default so long as none of the skills involved go down). Any GM who enforces an attribute cap, and then punishes players by requiring them to, as in this example, pay full price for a level of IQ, wasting points simply because they had the gall to envision a character who started with a higher Per than their IQ, would count in my book as a bad GM.

[Arcanjo7Sagi]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think there's any support in the books for charging players points for a trait they don't get. A character who goes from
IQ 18 [160]
Will 18 [0]
Per 20 [10]

to

IQ 19 [180]
Will 19 [0]
Per 20 [5]

is perfectly RAW-legal. There are places in the book that even state that you can do quasi-respecs to change how points are distributed to be more efficient, so long as you don't lose capabilities - for example, see Improving Skills From Defaults, B173 - you can switch the direction of a default so long as none of the skills involved go down). Any GM who enforces an attribute cap, and then punishes players by requiring them to, as in this example, pay full price for a level of IQ, wasting points simply because they had the gall to envision a character who started with a higher Per than their IQ, would count in my book as a bad GM.

I agree. Just remember that in normal games, IQ, Will and Per cannot go above 20 for humans.

So, if he already has Perception 20, he can't buy to 21. It would be like Varyon's example, he would pay 15 points to increase IQ and Will to 19, and then another 15 if he wanted to increase from 19 to 20.

Think of Per as if it were (IQ, Per Only, -75%). He would be paying to remove the limitation. I know it's not exactly like that, but it's a similar idea.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Ughbash

Normally yes, and I would tend to run it as option 1.

Only reason it came up is due to the line about perception in the basic book.

"By default, Per equals IQ, but you can increase it for 5 points per +1, or reduce it for -5 points per -1. You cannot raise Per past 20, or lower it by more than 4, without GM permission." (Basic page 16).

This seems to hard cap perception at 20...

That's specifically a rule about buying up perception. IQ is much more expensive and loses a bit of functionality once you buy it up over 20.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Arcanjo7Sagi

I agree. Just remember that in normal games, IQ, Will and Per cannot go above 20 for humans.

Of course in a normal game, there aren't very many characters who have 200 points invested in IQ, have gained another 20, and somehow have nothing more attractive to spend it on than levelling IQ some more.

Hitting attribute limits is not a situation I've ever seen in play, maybe occasionally at character creation where you actually have a lot of points at once and each individual one isn't quite so precious.