Supers

[Gollum]

In my humble opinion, the best way to convert that PD in 4th edition is to answer to the question: what does it represent?

The fact of not being hit, sure, but that is abstract and as long as it will remain abstract, it will be hard to find the good 4th edition way to model it.

How does the character avoid being hit? Super slippy skin? Super toughness?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Gollum

In my humble opinion, the best way to convert that PD in 4th edition is to answer to the question: what does it represent?

The fact of not being hit, sure, but that is abstract and as long as it will remain abstract, it will be hard to find the good 4th edition way to model it.

How does the character avoid being hit? Super slippy skin? Super toughness?

I don't think 'super toughness' would fall under 'avoid being hit' - that's more 'avoid being injured,' hence DR. Some forms of Passive Defence could represent 'alters the probability of being hit' or 'redirects the movement of incoming attacks.' If there were a PD advantage, it could simulate each of those just by switching out the power modifier.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I don't think 'super toughness' would fall under 'avoid being hit' - that's more 'avoid being injured,' hence DR. Some forms of Passive Defence could represent 'alters the probability of being hit' or 'redirects the movement of incoming attacks.' If there were a PD advantage, it could simulate each of those just by switching out the power modifier.

Some of the characters with high PD in 3rd edition Supers just achieved it via high levels of Body of Metal or Body of Stone, or by adding PD to worn armor. 3rd edition PD included an element of 'avoid being injured'.

[Bathawk]

Originally Posted by nickmayhew

I'm trying to understand the difference between 3 and 4E supers. I see on pages 4 and 5 of the Powers book, there's an attempt to tell the differences. For example, the 3e villain Chemico has alter, analyze, and disintegrate as super powers, but I can't see them in the 4E powers book. Maybe they are in there, but the names had to be changes for whatever reason, maybe to be different? I don't mean to seem to be negative of 4E. I've been a 3E player since 1988 and am forced to look at 4E if I want to incorporate Gurps into foundry VTT. Characters created in Gurps character sheets can be brought into fvtt seamlessly, but I wanted to use the only character examples that I can find, which are in the 3E books. Thanks for your help.

Hello! Wow you got into gurps Supers a few years before I did, so I know what your going through

There are a lot of changes, I'll try to go over some of the major ones I recall
Damage Resistance is more expensive, hit points less so; This makes sense because in 3rd edition, at medium to high power levels if any damage was enough to penetrate DR, it was likely to kill the target, cheaper HP allows characters to soak damage like characters in other games

Invulnerability is gone, the idea being that if DR costs 5 points per level, and the equivalent invulnerability is say 100pts., why would you ever buy DR over 20?. Instead there is Injury Tolerance: Damage Reduction, so you can now divide damage by say, 100 for 300pts.

"super powers" are gone, which is a good thing, instead of having a skill based on "very hard" skill progression, you typicaly just need a single easy Innate attack skill, which saves a lot of points

Most former super powers that had a resistance rolls like "Blind", "deafen" or "mute" are now covered by the affliction advantage. not a huge fan of this, at 10 points per level affliction can get very expensive once you start adding modifiers, but after you "sell back" your Basic Speed and FP, HT ends up really only costs 2 pt's per level, it can be really easy for a Super to be near invulnerable to afflictions

A power modifier (usually -10%) helps define powers, two characters might have a 3d "Fireball" effect but the one who has "super -10%" as a modifier isn't affected by detect magic or anti-magic fields, while the one who has "magic -10%" aren't affected by...for example "power nullifiers"

One thing I use a lot is "shared abilities" (not sure if it's in Powers or or Supers) It allows you to buy abilities at 1/5th cost by making them a separate "setting" of another ability (a laser than can be switched to a blinding flash)

A lot of powers from 3rd edition are represented by other abilities...Chemico's "Analyze" would be a variation of "Detect"..."Flesh to Acid" Would be Innate Attack (corrosive), And as mentioned "Alter" would be "Create (with the transmutation modifier)

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I don't think 'super toughness' would fall under 'avoid being hit' - that's more 'avoid being injured,' hence DR. Some forms of Passive Defence could represent 'alters the probability of being hit' or 'redirects the movement of incoming attacks.' If there were a PD advantage, it could simulate each of those just by switching out the power modifier.

Yes. But there are a lot of ways to 'alter the probability of being hit'. And GURPS 4th edition offers several ways to do it. Defenses, penalties to the attack roll, deflection of the blow (which is now part of the DR) ...

So, the right answer really depends on how does the Super concretely do that and may vary from one character to the other.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Gollum

Yes. But there are a lot of ways to 'alter the probability of being hit'. And GURPS 4th edition offers several ways to do it. Defenses, penalties to the attack roll, deflection of the blow (which is now part of the DR) ...

So, the right answer really depends on how does the Super concretely do that and may vary from one character to the other.

'Penalties to the attack roll' is how I reflexively think of Passive Defence working, but it's been a long time since I read the 3e Basic Set, so that may be off from how it actually works in 3e.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

'Penalties to the attack roll' is how I reflexively think of Passive Defence working

In 3e, Passive Defense added to the value of Active Defense scores, just as DB (Defensive Bonus) does in 4e. Also, the 4e calculation of an Active Defense as something like "3 + skill / 2" shows the 3e lineage. In 4e, the "3" is just a uniform value applied to all defenses in place of the no-longer-existent PD to keep in numbers in the right range and avoid having to redesign the whole combat system just to get rid of PD. The 3e version would have been "PD + skill / 2", where PD was a stat based on your armor type, including shields.

PD was supposed to represent the armor's ability to passively turn a blow (hence the name). So, it worked even if you were unconscious on the ground (to reprise an earlier comment), not just as part of Active Defense rolls. It gave characters a small chance always to avoid damage.

A bonus to the defense is close to the effect of a penalty to the attack roll, but they're not quite the same thing. Defense isn't a Contest -- MoS doesn't matter, you only have to succeed at the defense roll.

(This is why Deceptive Attack is important; it's not a bonus to your attack, it's a penalty to the target's defense, which in typical situations is more effective than an attack bonus of the same size. Note the 2:1 exchange rate for a balanced DA: -2 to attack buys -1 to defense. If you wanted DB to be an attack penalty rather than a defense bonus, you'd probably have to double the values.)

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

In 3e, Passive Defense added to the value of Active Defense scores, just as DB (Defensive Bonus) does in 4e. Also, the 4e calculation of an Active Defense as something like "3 + skill / 2" shows the 3e lineage. In 4e, the "3" is just a uniform value applied to all defenses in place of the no-longer-existent PD to keep in numbers in the right range and avoid having to redesign the whole combat system just to get rid of PD. The 3e version would have been "PD + skill / 2", where PD was a stat based on your armor type, including shields.

One of the difficulties with PD was that it was possible to collect enough of it to have a major effect on active defences. Several 3e combat skills (Brawling, Fencing, Judo and Karate) gave a Parry of two-thirds skill rather than half.

This meant that a fencer with skill 15 could get a Parry of 15: 10 from 2/3 skill, PD2 DR 2 leather armour, PD 1 from a buckler, PD 1 from a basket hilt and +1 to active defences from Combat Reflexes. Since Fencing allowed two unpenalized parries per turn, or unlimited parries if you took an All-Out Defence, this was a bit too good.

Fencing was Physical/Average, so it cost [8] for DX+2, and you could get that skill of 15 if you had DX 13 (which was only [30]). This was achievable for a starting character on [100+40+5]. But Fencing at DX+3 would cost another [8], for a total of [16], and wasn't cost-effective.

The redesign of attributes, skill costs and combat for 4e was much subtler than the changes to powers/psionics design, but very effective. It allowed sensible character design at a wide range of power levels, rather than concentrating on getting the maximum out of a standard starting level.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by johndallman

One of the difficulties with PD was that it was possible to collect enough of it to have a major effect on active defences. Several 3e combat skills (Brawling, Fencing, Judo and Karate) gave a Parry of two-thirds skill rather than half.

Or as another example, Shield, an Easy skill, was merely 1/3 skill, a tweak to avoid PD + DB + (Shield / 2) dominating the battlefield. Similarly, I suspect those low-armor martial artists and fencers needed a 3e tweak upwards to compensate for not being able to stack a lot of PD.

The redesign of attributes, skill costs and combat for 4e was much subtler than the changes to powers/psionics design, but very effective.

I agree. There's a few things I had to get used to in 4e, but I like the way it turned out. I'm not trying to argue that PD was better. Just trying to review what it used to do, so those that don't know have some more information when it comes to converting old 3e stats.

FWIW, I agree with earlier posters that suggest contemplating the concept when translation even from 3e to 4e. It's perhaps overly simulationist to insist that PD always meant that attacks literally bounce, while DR equally literally always means soaking the damage, but that's the certainly the feel. So, if you want Juggernaut or The Thing to stolidly stalk forward through a hail of bullets, you might not want to give them Parry (because they're unarmed and aren't slapping bullets aside) or Dodge (because that feels like they're lithely slipping aside), but Block (even though they have no shield). Which brings us back to perhaps giving them some DB as a Block Bonus, even if they're not carrying a physical one. Or it could just be Extra Defense for Block, which you roll as the least clashing option of the three. Or you could just make it DR, accepting that the bullets "hit" but bounce off, exactly like the 3e PD stat gave the impression that those swords or maces "hit" your plate armor, but glanced off. "Not being hit in the first place" wasn't really reflected by high PD well anyway, even if that was closer than high DR ("hit but soaks it").

This is a question of feel, and thus somewhat personal and subjective, not of pure mechanics. Mechanically it still makes a little difference -- for example, you're supposed to check missed shots to see if they hit anyone behind in line, so if your defense is literally "not being hit" then maybe you need something like Reflexive Insubstantial (Only Vs Bullets) to give you the right feel, whereas high DR is too brick-like. A wispy character could conceivably have been built in 3e with high PD to reflect that concept, but rather than copy that stat as closely as possible in 4e, maybe it's better to go back to the concept and implement it in a new and maybe even more satisfying way.

[Bathawk]

Presently when I "convert" Passive Defense to 4th edition, I either give the character Injury tolerance: damage reduction {PD: 1 being something like "only vs. bullets -40%, super -10%) to bring it down to 25 points

Or I simply use the "defense bonus" meta trait from pg.34 of 4th ed Supers

Also toyed around with a "hard to hit" ability something that costs 20pts.-25pts. and gives a -1 to hit per level. Now it may seem scary ti give a character -10 to be hit for "only" 200pts. to250pts. but I don't consider it much difference to the -10 to hit an invisible character