Allies: Minion vs. Unwilling

[Nedorus]

While working on my GURPS-adaptation of the Cyberpunk+Elves game I ran into the question whether the Conjurable spirits should be Minions, Unwilling or both.

I like the idea that you have a strong hold over them (the magical bond) which would fit Unwilling.

On the other hand I would hate to need to roll whether the "Ally" rebels every time he's ordered to do something dangerous... So Minion does make sense.

How would Minion and Unwilling interact? RAW they don't seem to be mutually exclusive but from how I read them they should...

While typing this, I went back and re-read the Dungeon Fantasy Summoners definition of Conjurable. I think I just found my "Middle Ground". There it states that a reaction roll is necessary with every summoning to see how the Spirit reacts.
The question now is how to 'accumulate' the 'reputation in the spirit world' that would impact that reaction roll.

Ok to phrase the two questions more explicitly:

1. How do Minion and Unwilling interact?
2. How would you suggest to build a ever-changing 'reputation in the spirit world'

[Varyon]

Minion means obeying your orders without question, regard for oneself, etc. Unwilling means they'll try to twist your orders into what they want to do (so long as they can get away with it) and a willingness to outright rebel and stop being an Ally if you give an order where the consequences of following it are worse than those of not doing so. I'd say they're mutually exclusive; at best, I could see a novel +0% modifier that sort-of combines them by giving you an ally who is unreliable similarly to Unwilling but will never cease being an Ally regardless of what orders you give, similarly to Minion.

If your reputation changes at random, I'd say that's basically built into the process of rolling a Reaction Roll. Otherwise, this is basically just Reputation, limited to only apply to those from the spirit world - it's up to the GM if that's a Small Group (1/3 cost), Large Group (1/2 cost), everyone but some Large Group (2/3 cost), or Almost Everyone (full cost); similarly the GM and/or player will need to decide how frequently the character is recognized.

[Nedorus]

Originally Posted by Varyon

I'd say they're mutually exclusive

My sentiment exactly. Wanted to make sure that I didn't miss anything.

Originally Posted by Varyon

If your reputation changes at random, I'd say that's basically built into the process of rolling a Reaction Roll. Otherwise, this is basically just Reputation, limited to only apply to those from the spirit world - it's up to the GM if that's a Small Group (1/3 cost), Large Group (1/2 cost), everyone but some Large Group (2/3 cost), or Almost Everyone (full cost); similarly the GM and/or player will need to decide how frequently the character is recognized.

hmmm... not changing randomly.
Good question about group size... I was just tempted to put -20% "Spirits only" on the 'Almost everyone' x1 variant. But I guess that would not be as intended. (^ö^)
So Large class of people (all Spirits) would be best.

Recognition would be immediate when perceiving the aura of the mage. So All the time: x1 seems appropriate.

However reputation would change significantly faster / more often than a 'normal' reputation would. Word of mouth spreads fast in the spirit world.... How would I price this in? The rep could quickly go from negative to positive or vice versa... Maybe within the scope of a single adventure. Several times within the scope of a campaign definitely.

Alternatively I could make spirits summoned by hermetic mages "Unwilling" while shaman-conjured spirits are not?

I have the "number of services owed" mechanism in place anyway... hmmm just think out loud (~_~)

[mlangsdorf]

An unwilling minion ally will never leave if you treat it poorly, but will subvert your orders if given the opportunity. If you order it to defend you in combat, it might defend you while deliberately making the situation worse for you and your allies. If ordered to defend you and your allies in combat, it might make every reasonable effort to defend your least vulnerable ally, and switch which ally it defends in order to maximize the enemy's opportunity to backstab people.

You'd have to be very specific with your orders for an unwilling minion, but there's no reason for the two modifiers to be exclusive. I can easily see the classic genie as an unwilling minion - you could order it on a suicide mission, but the results are likely to be unhappy unless your order is very specific.

Unwilling minions with Slave Mentality are a bit weirder, but I think you end up with an ally that maliciously works to the rule and uses any ambiguities in your orders against you. It's actually more survivable than an unwilling minion without Slave mentality.

[zoncxs]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

An unwilling minion ally will never leave if you treat it poorly, but will subvert your orders if given the opportunity. If you order it to defend you in combat, it might defend you while deliberately making the situation worse for you and your allies. If ordered to defend you and your allies in combat, it might make every reasonable effort to defend your least vulnerable ally, and switch which ally it defends in order to maximize the enemy's opportunity to backstab people.

You'd have to be very specific with your orders for an unwilling minion, but there's no reason for the two modifiers to be exclusive. I can easily see the classic genie as an unwilling minion - you could order it on a suicide mission, but the results are likely to be unhappy unless your order is very specific.

Unwilling minions with Slave Mentality are a bit weirder, but I think you end up with an ally that maliciously works to the rule and uses any ambiguities in your orders against you. It's actually more survivable than an unwilling minion without Slave mentality.

And now we see how to write up a Fae that gets caught in a contract with a mortal.

[Anthony]

Given that Minion mentions "+0% if the Minion has IQ 0 or Slave Mentality (p. 154), as the benefits of total loyalty are offset by the need for close supervision", having minions who are hostile to you seems perfectly possible as a similar 0% or possibly worse. However, I'd call that "hostile" rather than "unwilling", as the unwilling limitation seems to only apply to allies who do your commands out of a fear of punishment, rather than supernaturally compelled creatures.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by zoncxs

And now we see how to write up a Fae that gets caught in a contract with a mortal.

Demona: If you can't get rid of all the humans, then at least rid me of that Human! Elisa Maza!
Puck: Did you say "that Human" or "that Human"? Oh, never mind, I'll figure it out. This just might be fun, after all.

On the other hand, given Puck's power, it's probably better to model him as an Enemy with Quirk: Likes to let mortals think they're winning.

[Nedorus]

Ok, getting this back on track.

Ok to phrase the two questions more explicitly:

1. How do Minion and Unwilling interact?
2. How would you suggest to build a ever-changing 'reputation in the spirit world'

So as for question 1:
Minion and Unwilling have in common
I don't need to treat my ally well.


What does each add to the common part

• Unwilling adds the "hate" part where the ally will try to undermine my every plan up to the points of outright rebellion.
• What does Minion add? Mental breakdowns? I guess the "but the Ally will not leave" is the main point.

Minion explicitly names fear as one possible reason for the ally staying loyal...
so even from a roleplaying perspective the two need not be different. Yes, they COULD be played differently depending on the exact circumstances, but they need not be.

Conclusion / Answer:
An ally with Unwilling plus Minion need not be treated well. and will never leave. He will try to undermine my goals though. The main part of an Ally, namely "An NPC Ally, on the other hand, is wholly reliable" is given up.

Now on to question 2.

...

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Nedorus

How would you suggest to build a ever-changing 'reputation in the spirit world'

As a way of thinking about this: how do you build an ever-changing bank account in gurps?



If the value is going to change drastically from moment to moment, it probably shouldn't be tracked with points. The two things worth charging points are:

1. Is it an advantage that he has a reputation at all? That would be some sort of Spirit Empathy.
2. Is the resting or average expected reputation positive? That would be some sort of reputation or charisma.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by ericthered

As a way of thinking about this: how do you build an ever-changing bank account in gurps?



If the value is going to change drastically from moment to moment, it probably shouldn't be tracked with points. The two things worth charging points are:

1. Is it an advantage that he has a reputation at all? That would be some sort of Spirit Empathy.
2. Is the resting or average expected reputation positive? That would be some sort of reputation or charisma.

On the third hand...

OP said that the reputation kicks in when Mage's aura is seen (by the Spirits I assume)? How would that interact when another Mage casts the Aura spell on him? Or a Mage running Mage Sight sees him? What about other types of people with 'Magically Sensitive' kinds of advantages?

FREX a race similar to Melnabonians (in a campaign I was a player in) received all kinds of -1 to -2 level reactions from the Magically Sensitive or 'normal' Mages.

Apparently a race intrinsically tied to Gods of Primal Chaos have a reputation for 'not playing well with others.' Particularly more Ordered, stable sorts.

Who knew? (I did I was getting (small) points for the disads)

Anyhoo that could shade his Reaction Rolls with non Spirits who have the right kind of 'Special' senses. Might be something to figure in if a Reputation package will be put together...