[Low-Tech/Basic] Pick: War Club or Pickaxe

[Blind Mapmaker]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm pretty sure there's comvat stats for a lumber axe in one of the LT books; I'd apply the same differences to a mining/digging pick vs. a military pick.

If there is, I can't find it - unless you mean the hatchet (probably not, but I'm not a native speaker of English). The tools section in LT is the closest match, but it doesn't give weapon stats for most. The adze is the closest I can get and this one says to treat it as a poorly balanced hatchet. I think the difference is larger than that, but maybe you're right and it's not that far off.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Hand tool versions of the pick, both one and two handed, have existed since prehistory and have probably been intermittently used as weapons for at least as long. If I had to guess why Basic calls the pick TL 3, it's because making a pick that will survive the rigors of combat is kinda hard.

You're not wrong about the general tool, but I'm thinking the pickaxe (as in this Wikipedia link) is a marked improvement over earlier versions already. Things like in this wikipedia link were more common and even less powerful ones too. Not to mention that nobody would make metal tools before the iron age.

Dalillama is also right about the weapons/arms race. If not for firearms these things would have kept a constant presence on battlefields. As it were they held on longer than you'd expect.

Game-mechanically I'm trying to strike a balance between realism and efficiency here, but I'm not there yet. Thanks for helping me get closer, though.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

You're not wrong about the general tool, but I'm thinking the pickaxe (as in this Wikipedia link) is a marked improvement over earlier versions already.

We have evidence for the pickaxe being used by the Assyrians to break apart cities back in TL 2. They just don't seem to have much used them as weapons.

The actual weapon use picks have much shorter spikes than an agricultural pickaxe. At a guess, this is to make it strong enough to be useful against armor, and reduce the chance of getting stuck in things. Honestly, the GURPS pick is probably more accurate to a pickaxe than to an actual pick, which would have better performance against armor and lower wounding.

[Pursuivant]

I've spent entirely too much time using a pickaxe/mattock for gardening, breaking concrete, etc. Admittedly, non-combat uses, but enough that I have a good sense of the tool's balance, reach and heft compared to actual weapons or weapon-like objects I've used in sport melee combat.

For simplicity, treat a pickaxe as a Warhammer. Despite the name, it actually does sw/imp damage and appears to be a weaponized pickaxe with sharper points. (What most people think of as a warhammer is what GURPS describes as a Maul. The warhammer looks like a militarized version of large miner's pick.)

The pick described in GURPS Basic, LT, MA, etc. is a smaller, one-handed weapon which looks a bit like a weaponized mason's hammer or rock pick but with a slightly longer handle.

What most people think of as a pickaxe is actually a pickaxe/mattock or pickaxe/adzes (depending on the exact shape of the non-pick end). It's actually what the Assyrian on the far left is using in the picture that Anthony referenced. These sorts of tools can be treated as a Warhammer which can be turned 180 degrees to do sw/cut damage like a Greataxe.

Due to duller edges/points and design optimized for all-out attacks (strong) against unsuspecting bits of rock or earth, a garden variety pickaxe or pickaxe/mattock can be treated as Improvised (-1 to hit & damage) if you carry it into battle.

If you take off the head, a pickaxe, etc. handle turns into a handy unbalanced club. Treat it as a Round Mace with no penalties for being an improvised weapon.

If you're using an ordinary pickaxe to break rock, it should get Armor Divisor (2) vs. stone and similar materials.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For simplicity, treat a pickaxe as a Warhammer. Despite the name, it actually does sw/imp damage and appears to be a weaponized pickaxe with sharper points.

Not sure it has sharper points; for example, this has a much faster taper than this, and therefore might well be duller or harder to sharpen. In practice, neither is likely to be terribly sharp, because both armor plates and rocky ground will dull a sharp point very very fast without a lot of benefit to the user.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm pretty sure there's comvat stats for a lumber axe in one of the LT books; I'd apply the same differences to a mining/digging pick vs. a military pick.

I think there might be a mattock in one of the Horrors... but I could be wrong.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I think there might be a mattock in one of the Horrors... but I could be wrong.

That may be the reference I was thinking of

[tbone]

Action 5 p29 covers pickaxes. Kind of.

A pickaxe falls under Two-Handed Axe/Mace, along with felling axe, broad axe, and splitting maul. Those weapons get Weapon Table entries with TH penalties noted (none for felling axe, -3 for broad axe and splitting maul). A pickaxe is described as "clumsy" but gets no Table entry, and no TH penalty is noted.

Suggested damage is the same as a great axe (sw+3 cut) for an edge or a warhammer (sw+3 imp) for a spike. (Those would be older damage stats from BS, not the newer sw+4 stats from Low-Tech, etc.) Weight is noted as between 8 and 15 lbs.; I'd think higher weights would call for more damage, but that's not given.

I'll suggest this:

Treat a pickaxe as a combo great axe/warhammer. Stats (using more modern damage stats):

8 lb.: sw+4 cut / sw+4 imp, ST 12‡
10 lb.: sw+5 cut / sw+4 imp, ST 12‡
12 lb.: sw+5 cut / sw+5 imp, ST 13‡
15 lb.: sw+6 cut / sw+5 imp, ST 14‡

(That's applying some of my own house rule stuff for modifying weapons; feel free to tone down those higher damages, or boost ST a bit.)

All are clumsy. (I'd go with the common -1 TH; -3 seems extreme to me. Then again, a pickaxe's exceptionally long head does look unwieldy...)

To remove the "clumsy" penalty, pay for a pickaxe that's a proper weapon/tool combo. I don't think there's a single rule somewhere covering this. As possible models to follow, the combo axe/shovel ("combat shovel") and hand weapons that double as climbing tools (Climber's modifier) come to mind. But those are for DF/DFRPG, and aren't necessarily realistic...

(But if this is for a fantasy game, you could just waive any "clumsy" stuff. The character uses a warhammer with all normal stats; it happens to look like a pickaxe.)

[Blind Mapmaker]

First off, thanks to everybody for chiming in. This is really the forum at its best.

Originally Posted by Anthony

We have evidence for the pickaxe being used by the Assyrians to break apart cities back in TL 2. They just don't seem to have much used them as weapons.

The actual weapon use picks have much shorter spikes than an agricultural pickaxe. At a guess, this is to make it strong enough to be useful against armor, and reduce the chance of getting stuck in things. [/snip]

Both seem reasonable. The old LT lists it as TL 2 and I know the Romans used them. Iron tools to slow down tool degradation seem like a signature TL 2 technology. And spike length has its limits when going after humans instead of stone.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I've spent entirely too much time using a pickaxe/mattock for gardening, breaking concrete, etc. Admittedly, non-combat uses, but enough that I have a good sense of the tool's balance, reach and heft compared to actual weapons or weapon-like objects I've used in sport melee combat.

[/snip]

What most people think of as a pickaxe is actually a pickaxe/mattock or pickaxe/adzes (depending on the exact shape of the non-pick end). It's actually what the Assyrian on the far left is using in the picture that Anthony referenced. These sorts of tools can be treated as a Warhammer which can be turned 180 degrees to do sw/cut damage like a Greataxe.

Due to duller edges/points and design optimized for all-out attacks (strong) against unsuspecting bits of rock or earth, a garden variety pickaxe or pickaxe/mattock can be treated as Improvised (-1 to hit & damage) if you carry it into battle.

[/snip]

Thank you very much, it's always good to have some-body with first-hand knowledge of the subject. I'm leaning towards using this with the addition of cheap quality for breakage purposes and adjusting the price accordingly.

Originally Posted by mburr0003

I think there might be a mattock in one of the Horrors... but I could be wrong.

There's a mattock attached to a zombie stat block on p. 155 that has 1d+2 damage, which would mean it's based on the pick. Not my favourite reference material though.

Originally Posted by tbone

Action 5 p29 covers pickaxes. Kind of.

A pickaxe falls under Two-Handed Axe/Mace, along with felling axe, broad axe, and splitting maul. Those weapons get Weapon Table entries with TH penalties noted (none for felling axe, -3 for broad axe and splitting maul). A pickaxe is described as "clumsy" but gets no Table entry, and no TH penalty is noted.

Gosh, I always forget Action exists. Why did my search engine not find it? I guess that what happens when you use the wrong exclusion terms on your search. To hit is given as -3 in the text, which does seem a little excessive for the 8 lbs. version and Pursuivant's experience speaks against it too. Maybe I go for -2 purely for game-mechanical reasons.

Originally Posted by tbone

Suggested damage [/snip] (Those would be older damage stats from BS, not the newer sw+4 stats from Low-Tech, etc.) [/snip]

Treat a pickaxe as a combo great axe/warhammer. Stats (using more modern damage stats):

8 lb.: sw+4 cut / sw+4 imp, ST 12‡

To remove the "clumsy" penalty, pay for a pickaxe that's a proper weapon/tool combo. I don't think there's a single rule somewhere covering this. As possible models to follow, the combo axe/shovel ("combat shovel") and hand weapons that double as climbing tools (Climber's modifier) come to mind. But those are for DF/DFRPG, and aren't necessarily realistic...
[/snip]

I'll work something up with LTC2. Currently I don't have a lot of interest in the bigger versions or hand-waving stuff. I play a lot of fantasy, but with a realistic veneer. It's not for any character (yet!) - I really only went through the tables to have an easy way to input stuff in my excel character sheets.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

Yes, the authors of GURPS Basic Set were probably thinking of the steel-headed warhammers with back spikes which appear in western Europe after 1400 when they created their entry for a Pick (TL 3). [/snip]

Seems like they did and I think it works fine as a horseman's one-handed weapon.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would give the kind of pickaxe that you use to break up earth or clay a penalty to hit (its too big and heavy, weapons for fighting have to me nimble because trees don't dodge or parry), require two hands, and give it stats similar to the Axe in GURPS Low-Tech but imp instead of cut if you strike with the spike. Maybe +1 damage for being two-handed.

I thought so at first too, but I think the others and Action 5 convinced me otherwise. Though maybe I shouldn't rely too much on that book - it is quite cinematic. I need to ruminate on this a little and make a couple of different versions.

Thanks again everybody. This has been a most useful exercise!

[tbone]

Originally Posted by Blind Mapmaker

To hit is given as -3 in the text...

Ah, you're right, it does say "-3". One of those things I missed while looking right at it.

I'm drawn toward a simple -1 instead, simply as it's the penalty used here and there for camp hatchets and hammers, machetes, crowbars, and other tools that take a penalty when used as weapons. But Action 5 does like to place larger penalties on a lot of things.

[Blind Mapmaker]

Okay, here's my take based partly on both editions of Low-Tech, Action 5 and everybody's contributions.

Let's start with what most people think of, when they hear pickaxe:

I'm starting with weight 7 lbs. and TL 2 from LT for 3rd Ed. The price of $18 seems low compared to adze and tool-grade hand-axe that both weigh in at more than double that.

Weight and two-handed nature put it in a similar position to the warhammer as Action 5 and several posters point out. LT (for 4th Ed.) gives sw+4 imp, ST 12‡ and a nice round price of a hundred bucks. The Cheaply Balanced option brings this down to $40 and already gives a -1 to skill, not only to hit, so it'll reduce parry for any even skill level. I would agree with Pursuivant that damage should be reduced by one since it's not really meant for combat use. I'd call that a wash price- and weight-wise since it does have tool use instead. I'll also lose the bonus for targeting chinks in armour since it's not a weapon of war - the high damage should make it useful still. Adding in an armour-divisor of (2) vs. stone is really niche in most cases, but you never know when you run into a golem. It balances out IMHO.

Low-Tech Companion lets us add an axe blade to the warhammer for a pound and $30. Since the actual pickaxe already has something like that and it is not technically a full-size axe blade, I'll split the difference and use half that. I'm also a little uncomfortable with straight great axe cutting damage, because of the really small and perpendicular blade. So I'm using the Long Axe (more historical anyway) instead and reduce the damage by one again for sw+2 cut.

So I end up with the following stat-line for :

Pickaxe (pick side): Damage: sw+3 imp | Reach: 1, 2* | Parry: 0U | Cost: $46 | Weight: 7.5 lbs. | ST 12‡ | TL 2
Pickaxe (axe side): Damage: sw+2 cut, rest the same.
May get stuck.
Changing side takes a ready action.

I think the cost is likely too high and I'd drop that to $40 or even $30 (if you're at TL 8 that seems to fit the home depot prices). I'm not too sure about reach either: 1, 2* seems high for stuff that averages about a 90-95 cm length. Maybe Pursuivant has a better idea whether that fits? Not that it is a huge thing game-wise with the necessary ready action.

Now for the one-handed mining tools that may have been more common in ancient times and were still in use right up to mechanised mining. You can see these here, here and here (one earthsci.org link, two wikipedia ones). I call this one a Miner's Pick since I'm not sure about the English name (the German word is Keilhaue and no I didn't know about this before doing some research):

I'll take the GURPS pick from LT as the basis and add Cheaply balanced for -1 to skill. I'd say it is less unwieldy so you could probably go with just -1 to hit instead, but that seems a little confusing and would make it more expensive than the pickaxe. The damage is reduced by one (those Horseman's Picks look quite a bit heftier in the head) and the bonus for targeting chinks in armour falls alongside. So I get this:

Miner's Pick: Damage: sw imp | Reach: 1 | Parry: 0U | Cost: $28 | Weight: 1.5 lbs. | ST 10 | TL 2
May get stuck.

Not completely sure about the TL, but metal tools should probably stay in TL 2 or be an advanced TL 1 technology. Adjust price to match the pickaxe.

In conclusion: the Pickaxe would be a nice if dangerous choice for a slave rebellion facing armoured foes. You'd have to rely on your dodge score. The Miner's Pick is considerably less interesting against anybody wearing more than token armour, but you can use an (improvised) shield together with it. Once you got ST 12 or more it looks quite nice again.

Thoughts or comments are very welcome. Thank you, folks!