Converting D&D/Other Adventures to DFRPG

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

Hordes of weak things are stronger in GURPS than they are in D&D, and a single foe with a lot of strength and toughness is generally weaker - there are exceptions like Electric Floating Jellies, Sword-Armor Golems, or Watchers at the End of Time. But those are powerful single combatants because they have a variety of good defenses on GURPS terms, not because they have a lot of HP.

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Concur with Mark here...the only way "one tough monster" was viable when I was writing the Bestiary versus 250-point or higher parties was to purposefull design them that way. Nictitating Membrane to prevent the "if it has eyes it dies" effect. Extra actions via fiat or rapid strike or high skill to offset the action economy, etc.

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

Dragons in GURPS tend to have weaker ranged attacks than in D&D 5e or depicted in a lot of fantasy. Range is more limited and cone attacks aren't as wide spread and powerful.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes? Basically reducing Scouts to attacks of opportunity.

[Dalin]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies.

These ideas would make a great Pyramid article.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I don't understand the whole if it has eyes it dies. So for instance dragons do have nictating membrane. It doesn't make sense to me that it is as touch as the scaled skin armor on the body, but it does. I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking. Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks. Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic. Dragons also have magic so why haven't they developed special spells to protect their eyes/face/head? Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

A couple of comments here:

(1) Nictitating membrane helps, but bodkin points are still pretty good at piercing DR 3-9.

(2) Spells like Missile Shield are also good, but cost a lot of energy to cast on SM +3-5 creatures (even if you are a SM +3-5 creature[1]), and meteoric iron arrows can still bypass these spells[2].

(3) In any case, this is the kind of thing Doug meant when he said he had to "purposefull[y] design" monsters to be "one tough monster." The point isn't that you can't have tough monsters; it's the fact that HP alone are not a sufficient defense unless you have hundreds of HP. A 500 HP godzilla is relatively immune to eyeshots. A 50 HP T-Rex is not.

[1] Unless the GM says otherwise, of course. A house rule that says something like "Subtract your own SM from the SM of creatures you cast Regular spells on for purposes of determining energy cost" would not be a bad thing. In fact I should probably make that one of my own house rules.

[2] Perhaps a better idea for a dragon would be an illusion spell to make its eyes appear to be higher or lower on its face than they actually are.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I'd think dragons should have eyelids and should be able to "block" by blinking.

Can you block something that can pierce your skin by "blinking"? Then the dragon either needs tougher eyelids, or something else going on for that idea.

Most have long flexible necks so they should be able to "dodge" just moving their head/necks.

That's already a completely valid way to interpret a Dodge.

Anyone with a bow becomes the prime target along with magic users since they also have ranged attacks and powerful magic.

Let me tell you the story of the time a green dragon made the mistake of announcing itself, then flying at our party while we were out in the open.

Now, it was used to caravans of quivering, fearful merchants who brought cattle or other gifts for it as payment for crossing it's prairies.

We, however hadn't actually spoken to anyone locally, so we had no idea about this arrangement.

It roared and began flying down towards us from it's lair in the distant mountains (like two miles off). I said, "Hey, DM, please let me know when it's in range for a fireball..."

A few in game minutes pass, GM says, "It's in range".

"I hold."
DM: "Okay..."
"OOC; so it's going to take about say, 6 rounds to get to fire-breathing range..." "Poison cloud, it's a green" "... right, anyway, about 6 rounds. I have 4 fireballs. I don't want it being able to flee when it realizes its error..."

Sure, "geek the Wizard first" is the trope classic for a reason, just make sure you're in range to does so, and not just in range to be disintegrated without being able to return fire.

Dragons also have magic...

Not always, but agreed. Baring sjmdw45's advice concerning SM and casting (which is advice that comes up frequently) I'd even allow them to just cast on themselves with "smaller areas", so Shield or Armor spell that only covers their head, or Return Missiles on their eyes, etc.

But, as sjmdw45 also points out, that won't help with anti-magic ammo.

Why aren't they doing things to blind the opposition with the ranged attacks?

They probably are. But remember this started by mentioning that T-Rexs weren't all that special when facing "Adventurer Level" PCs, because they are pretty good at rapid threat elimination.

For giants why not use shields? Why not use your arm to shield your eyes?

They can... but even with a shield that's not really "limiting them to attacks of opportunity", the giant still needs to succeed at their block. And even if the Scout has to declare Waits... you aren't removing their "if it has eyes, it dies" ability.

Unless the giant claps an arm over their eyes and fights blindly, which, yeah, sure I've built blind cave trolls and ogres this way for a reason.


Basically, if there is a good Scout in the party (or Swishypokler, or highly skilled anything poker), If It Has Eyes (or Vitals) It Dies. So... just go into fights expecting this and prepare.

And as Douglas said, sometimes "horde" is better than "One BBEG". The difference is in D&D there really isn't an easy way to bypass AC and then do tremendous amounts of bonus damage, GURPS there often is (unless you build for it not be easy or even existent). So be ready to see it.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

Unless the giant claps an arm over their eyes and fights blindly, which, yeah, sure I've built blind cave trolls and ogres this way for a reason.


Basically, if there is a good Scout in the party (or Swishypokler, or highly skilled anything poker), If It Has Eyes (or Vitals) It Dies. So... just go into fights expecting this and prepare.

And there are lots of ways to prepare! I don't want to derail this thread, but some of the ways to give headaches to scouts include:

1.) Monsters with small size and/or high Dodge. Trying to eyeshot a Dodge 14 flying monster is an exercise in frustration, since bows can't Feint or Deceptive Attack. (You may need to get the wizard to cast Flight on a melee fighter instead.)

2.) As mentioned previously, monsters with protective magic, like dragons.

3.) Monsters that come in large numbers, like three giant brothers instead of just one.

4.) Monsters that don't have brains, like trolls, demons, or oozes.

5.) Monsters that are really fast, like Watchers at the Edge of Time, who can close with you and gut you (or cut up your longbow!) before you can beat their Dodge.

6.) Monsters that use trickery, camouflage, invisibility, etc. to prevent you from attacking them before they get in range.

7.) Monsters that burrow through the ground, like landsharks or Tremors graboids.

[Evanm]

Good to know. I suppose it is a similar situation to D&D 5e where in a theoretical scenario, a ranged sharpshooter could kite a big oaf forever, but I've still found ways of dealing with that so I'm sure I could learn to deal with eye-sniping. Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Evanm

Good to know. I suppose it is a similar situation to D&D 5e where in a theoretical scenario, a ranged sharpshooter could kite a big oaf forever, but I've still found ways of dealing with that so I'm sure I could learn to deal with eye-sniping. Still though, a character so good with his bow that he just runs around shooting creatures in their eyeballs to kill seems like a...quirk of GURPS to say the least.

I actually view 5E's Sharpshooter -5/+10 through the headshot lens too.

The real difference IMO is that in DF a single headshot that lands usually takes out most characters or monsters, whereas killing e.g. a Goristro in 5E takes a dozen or so crossbow bolts to the head, in my interpretation of the rules at least. (And also the fact that in 5E the DM never responds, "the peshkali grins ghoulishly at you through the ruins of her head. The fact that the top half of her head is missing appears to discomfit her not at all." In DFRPG somewhere between 10% and 40% of the monsters are immune.)

This is a feature of DFRPG combat in general: more dodging or parrying because in many cases a single good hit can kill you. Attrition isn't really as much of a thing in GURPS/DFRPG. How you feel about DF may depend to a large degree on how you feel about attrition-based gameplay.

P.S. A good fictional example of a habitual headshotter is Kincaid from the Dresden Files.

Originally Posted by Microfiction #3

“In the chest, Kincaid,” Ivy said.

If you’re shooting at someone, you’ve already decided to kill him. There’s no reason to shoot him anywhere other than the head, if you can. And I can.

She took a step toward me, maybe ninety pounds of furious, tearful eyes and newly-filled-out lips pulled away from a snarl. “In the chest. Or face me.”

I thought about asking her why. But in the end, it didn’t really matter.

[Evanm]

Yeah I also interpret Great Weapon Master in that way too. A massive, skull-splitting blow.

Also thanks for the info. I'm not married to attrition-based gameplay, but I have to admit I don't have much experience outside of it besides Call of Cthulhu and Delta Green, which aren't really games that encourage combat. I'm eyeing DFRPG simply because I still like "Dungeon Fantasy", I just want to try a different way of playing it.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

P.S. A good fictional example of a habitual headshotter is Kincaid from the Dresden Files.

I was just rereading those microfictions and short-stories last night. Never did like Kincaid... until that microfiction.