[DF] Dwarven Cleric and ancestor worship?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

You could also use the granted by ally modifier on some powers to represent being able to have an ancestor "walk in" and use their skills through your body.

If you go with this option, it also implies that spells like Borrow Skill & Lend Skill are on the spell list.

If you're building spell lists, take a look at the Body Control, Communication & Empathy, and Knowledge College spells. Any spell which could be reasonably emulated by having a friendly ancestral spirit temporarily lend powers, possess someone, etc. would be a candidate.

Necromantic College spells which allow the caster to communicate with the dead, banish undead, or travel to the Afterlife and return would also be possible if ancestors can communicate with the cleric, interfere with undead spirits, or act as psychopomps.

If the cleric can physically embody ancestors to fight for him, take a look at the Create Servant and Create Warrior spells or the Planar Summons spell.

If Dwarves are inherently "creatures of Earth" (or whatever) and ancestral spirits return to the element from which they came, Earth and possibly certain Movement College spells are on the list.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

If Dwarves are inherently "creatures of Earth" (or whatever) and ancestral spirits return to the element from which they came, Earth and possibly certain Movement College spells are on the list.

In the Noble Dead Saga series of books, dwarves engaged in ancestor worship. Their greatest people - often but not always warriors (one of the most revered ancestors was known as Feather-Tongue, and was basically a bard/poet) - are the Thanae, and when a Thanae (it seemed to be the same word when singular or plural) died, if they were sufficiently great, then the Stonewalkers would come for the body to be "taken into stone" (those who the Stonewalkers didn't choose were cremated IIRC, just like common dwarves when they die). Being "taken into stone" essentially meant their body was transformed into a stone statue and kept down in the crypts; those dwarves were thought to eventually become the Eternals (like Feather-Tongue), essentially the closest thing the dwarves had to gods*.

The Stonewalkers themselves have a variety of abilities, but the most notable (and where they get their name) is that they can fuse with - and pass through - stone. They can even bring passengers, although such passengers cannot breathe during travel, so this only works for short jaunts (I think one of them actually weaponizes this in a flashback, basically trapping an opponent in stone to suffocate, but I may be misremembering). Fusing with stone also makes them immune to any sort of life-draining attack (such as is favored by several types of undead), and also allows them to affect insubstantial undead (and the stone wall/floor/whatever they are in contact with when fusing becomes impermeable to such as well within a certain range).


*There were also the Fallen, those who either were given the rank of Thanae inappropriately (Avarice was noted to have basically managed to purchase the rank) or who basically betrayed the dwarves and/or their principles in terrible fashion (Thalluhearag, initially translated as Lord of Slaughter, was a warrior Thanae who more-or-less singlehandedly destroyed a major dwarven city he was meant to be protecting during an ancient semi-apocalyptic war; when Wynn finally sees his name written rather than hearing it pronounced, she realizes a more accurate translation is Lord of Genocide). They basically serve as the devils/boogeymen in the dwarven religion, their names permanently struck from the record with only their titles - their primary sin - remaining. Interestingly, there's some implication that at least some of the Stonewalkers are descended from, and called to service by, the Fallen, perhaps as a means of serving penance for their ancestors' deeds.

[Phil Masters]

I didn't think to cover ancestor worship in DF 7, because I tend to think of it as a completely different thing to generic dungeon fantasy polytheism, but I can see the logic. Of course, each cleric might be assumed to focus on a specific ancestor who was noted for mastery of healing arts, or of stone, or of defending the community, or of warfare, or whatever, then pick your cleric type appropriately, but that feels like a bit of a cop-out. Brewing up your own spell lists should be more interesting, if more like work.

One possibility would be to base your clerical powers on the Reincarnation Power from Thaumatology (pp. 206-207). It's mostly fairly low-key stuff, but I've found Modular Abilities (Skills Only) useful enough to cause a little GM surly muttering.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

I didn't think to cover ancestor worship in DF 7, because I tend to think of it as a completely different thing to generic dungeon fantasy polytheism, but I can see the logic. Of course, each cleric might be assumed to focus on a specific ancestor who was noted for mastery of healing arts, or of stone, or of defending the community, or of warfare, or whatever, then pick your cleric type appropriately, but that feels like a bit of a cop-out. Brewing up your own spell lists should be more interesting, if more like work.

One possibility would be to base your clerical powers on the Reincarnation Power from Thaumatology (pp. 206-207). It's mostly fairly low-key stuff, but I've found Modular Abilities (Skills Only) useful enough to cause a little GM surly muttering.

Arguably fits better with Shamanism - RuneQuest combines the two fairly freely with shamen working with regular spirits and ancestor (and other) ghosts interchangably.

[mburr0003]

While it does lead to a more shamanism flavor, I played a Dwarven Holy Warrior/Cleric for a bit whose belief system was founded in the Celestial Bureaucracy style of ancestor worship.

So instead of getting spells or abilities straight from the ancestors (in some cases yes, that's how it worked) it was more of a "pray to specific (or general) ancestor(s) to intercede with the Celestial Bureaucracy to get things done (for spells or abilities)".

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

While it does lead to a more shamanism flavor, I played a Dwarven Holy Warrior/Cleric for a bit whose belief system was founded in the Celestial Bureaucracy style of ancestor worship.

So instead of getting spells or abilities straight from the ancestors (in some cases yes, that's how it worked) it was more of a "pray to specific (or general) ancestor(s) to intercede with the Celestial Bureaucracy to get things done (for spells or abilities)".

That's pretty cool - and presumably prolonged veneration of specific ancestors, plus prestige earned by their descendants etc. helps them get promoted in the Celestial Bureaucracy and thus in turn have more powers at their disposal.

(and can I just say that the Chinese idea of exorcising a ghost by getting an arrest warrant issued for it is extremely "based").

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Of course, each cleric might be assumed to focus on a specific ancestor who was noted for mastery of healing arts, or of stone, or of defending the community, or of warfare, or whatever...

Who shall henceforth be known as Kromm.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

Brewing up your own spell lists should be more interesting, if more like work.

A GMs work is never done... but yes, a tailored list is a better option.

Originally Posted by Phil Masters

One possibility would be to base your clerical powers on the Reincarnation Power from Thaumatology (pp. 206-207). It's mostly fairly low-key stuff, but I've found Modular Abilities (Skills Only) useful enough to cause a little GM surly muttering.

Ta muchly.

[Luke Bunyip]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

That's pretty cool...

Agreed.

Originally Posted by The Colonel

...and can I just say that the Chinese idea of exorcising a ghost by getting an arrest warrant issued for it is extremely "based".

As is this.

At the moment, the planned McGuffin in my upcoming Dwarf Fortress-y Dungeon Fantasy game is a spiritual demarcation dispute between a human necromancer and a goblin shaman that believes that the dead should stay dead.

This, and the Celestial Bureaucracy idea should fit very nicely into my campaign rough draft.
Ta muchly.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by Luke Bunyip

At the moment, the planned McGuffin in my upcoming Dwarf Fortress-y Dungeon Fantasy game...

Do the Dwarves have a "beard sense"? Please tell me they have beard sense...

/Dwarf Fortress in-joke

[benz72]

One set of concepts to look at is interrelationships between culture, longevity, magic system for clerics and belief systems.
A culture of long lived beings who aspire to skills mastery might find the idea of borrowing skills from the honored dead to be central to their sense of continuity, or a cheap hack that only those desperate enough to take shortcuts would countenance.
A long lived people who spend many decades or even a few centuries transferring knowledge from generation to generation might have a different perspective on the utility of 'asking great grandpa how he used to do things' than humans would.
If dwarven magic is tied to craftsmanship then perhaps all the cool techniques to do amazing things are the purview of ancestors with the Craft Secret perk who are called upon to loan that skill to a worthy descendant for the duration of a project.

EDIT
Thinking about this a little more, what would happen to the pace of cultural change if a society depended upon cranky ancestors for magic? Perhaps this is a fundamental philosophical difference between Dwarven and Gnomish artificers? Dwarves loog to the past for deeper meaning and understanding while gnomes tend to experiment with the latest thing)