Fast Draw critical success

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

It could mean that instead of drawing just one arrow, you managed to draw a fistful of arrows, Lars Anderson-style (I suppose Lars Anderson would probably call it ancient Persian style or something).

Shooting multiple arrows per second is surprisingly realistic if you already have them all in hand.

Not everyone's going to want to fire multiple arrows. Also what are the rules for doing that? All-Out-Attack (Double)? Adapt Rapid-Strike for Ranged Attack? Can anyone other than Weapon Master (Bow) even do this?

So lets say I allow this. It would require Heroic Archer or Weapon Master (Bow). If you crit on Fast-Draw (Arrow) I'd allow picking the number of arrows - 1,2, or 3 (any more than that just seems really silly to me). So now what? If aiming at the same target, do I have one roll or the number of arrows? Is there a penalty (I'd think there should be)? What if aiming at multiple targets? What's the penalty on that?

If I were to allow this, I think I'd want to allow this on non-crit success at some sort of penalty (they do mention in Heroic Archer penalty's on FD (arrow)). Maybe -2 per extra Arrow to be drawn. So no penalty for 1 arrow, -2 for 2 arrows, -4 for 3 arrows.

I guess Legolas did the two arrow shot in Lord of the Rings movie and Robin Hood did in Prince of Thieves.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Not everyone's going to want to fire multiple arrows. Also what are the rules for doing that? All-Out-Attack (Double)? Adapt Rapid-Strike for Ranged Attack? Can anyone other than Weapon Master (Bow) even do this?

Personally I wouldn't offer any benefit for a critical success on fast draw, so I'm mostly staying out of this conversation, but in response to T-bone saying he couldn't think of a rationale that would justify it I was offering a rationale for the rule you gave in the OP: "automatic success for future attempts in same combat... Example: Scout Emily rolls a crit success on Fast Draw (arrow). It succeeds and for the remainder of the combat all FD automatically succeed and no further rolls are needed."

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

I guess Legolas did the two arrow shot in Lord of the Rings movie and Robin Hood did in Prince of Thieves.

No, this isn't shooting multiple arrows at once. It's just a way of shooting arrows very rapidly, just like Heroic Archer allows. See https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk?t=35 for a clip of him shooting 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds, the same speed as a Heroic Archer with Extra Attack.

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

... I was offering a rationale for the rule you gave in the OP: "automatic success for future attempts in same combat... Example: Scout Emily rolls a crit success on Fast Draw (arrow). It succeeds and for the remainder of the combat all FD automatically succeed and no further rolls are needed."
...
No, this isn't shooting multiple arrows at once. It's just a way of shooting arrows very rapidly, just like Heroic Archer allows. See https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk?t=35 for a clip of him shooting 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds, the same speed as a Heroic Archer with Extra Attack.

That was entertaining.

[tbone]

On shooting multiple arrows at once:

Kromm lays it all out in glorious detail in this thread: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...48#post2392248

It's for DF, but of course can be dropped into DFRPG.

From there, the question for this thread becomes "So what are the effects of crit success on the Fast-Draw component of the feat?"

Off the top of my head, maybe this: On a crit success with Fast-Draw (Arrow), the PC has the option of grabbing one more arrow than attempted: two arrows if the intent was to draw one, three if the intent was to draw two, etc.

The PC who fortuitously grabbed (say) two arrows instead of one could then choose to shoot both at once (see link above). Or, since that's a difficult task, the PC could shoot one, while the other one stays deftly held in the draw hand, meaning no need for Fast-Draw on the following turn.

Sounds workable to me. Of course, it suggests that anyone could intentionally load up the draw hand with multiple arrows in advance, taking a bit of time to do what the above Fast-Draw crit success accomplishes, so you can start the fight with two or three or four single shots in succession, requiring no Fast-Draw. There should perhaps be a TH penalty for firing while holding on to additional arrows, but the video restlessgriffin linked suggests that it's definitely a thing you can do.

===

All that said, there's a beauty in keeping things simple for DFRPG. I've no argument with a GM who says crit success of Fast-Draw (Arrow) has no special effect.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

No, this isn't shooting multiple arrows at once. It's just a way of shooting arrows very rapidly, just like Heroic Archer allows. See https://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk?t=35 for a clip of him shooting 10 arrows in 4.9 seconds, the same speed as a Heroic Archer with Extra Attack.

If that's Lars Anderson, he uses a reduced strength bow. IIRC it's around 20 pound pull, which is around ST 6-7? He's also not performing full draws.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

If that's Lars Anderson, he uses a reduced strength bow. IIRC it's around 20 pound pull, which is around ST 6-7? He's also not performing full draws.

I always wonder what point someone is trying to make when they say something like this. Are you just trying to point out that a real 250 point archer would be stronger and better than a self-taught modern amateur archer?

Lars Anderson doesn't even claim to have originated the arrow-holding techniques he advocates. He thinks they were widely used in the ancient world, and points to artistic depictions of ancient archers holding several arrows in hand at once. Whether or not he's correct about history, it's an undeniable fact that the technique works, and it plausibly explains D&D-style "four shots in six seconds" or even DF-style "ten shots in five seconds."

[tbone]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

If that's Lars Anderson, he uses a reduced strength bow. IIRC it's around 20 pound pull, which is around ST 6-7? He's also not performing full draws.

No doubt, his shots aren't backed by strong bows or full draws. If we want to be fully realistic, the game's super-speed shots should probably involve operating at less than full strength. The same likely holds for Rapid Strike too: in reality, those double-speed greatsword swings should be shorter and weaker than the full chop. (I think there were protests along those lines on the forums way back when a Rapid Strike-like mechanism was just an idea being tossed about.)

But: For dungeon-delving cinematic "realism", crazy-fast attacks at full power sound right!

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

I always wonder what point someone is trying to make when they say something like this. Are you just trying to point out that a real 250 point archer would be stronger and better than a self-taught modern amateur archer?

I'm pointing out that he is getting his speed by sacrificing power, as tbone recognized. If we wanted to do it "realistically", we need to either radically lower the damage done with each shot, or just use the rule in Martial Arts and apply a -10 for a "draw and fire in 1 turn" shot.

Lars Anderson doesn't even claim to have originated the arrow-holding techniques he advocates.

The arrow holding technique has less to do with his speed than under-drawing a low-draw strength bow does. He's basically just 'flicking' the arrows with just enough power to stick int he target or knock askew other arrows.

He also does a lot of takes to get the perfect shots he does.

Originally Posted by tbone

But: For dungeon-delving cinematic "realism", crazy-fast attacks at full power sound right!

Certainly. I'd even allow it in a realistic game with teh -10 rules from Martial Arts. But then I prefer higher levels of cinematic action in my games, even if I'm doing a "gritty, dirty, bleak, and desperate" genre.