Friends, Hirelings, and Side-Kicks

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Please expand on Leadership being used like Diplomacy? I may or may not want to do similar but you have my interest. Tactics sounds like pretty much RAW. Anyway, that's the way I've always viewed it.

Diplomacy is different from other influence rolls (Exploits pg 10) in that "Exception: If you used Diplomacy, the GM will also make a regular reaction roll and use the better of the two reactions."

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

12 is competent. It'll fail if they get overly complicated in the directions.

It'll fail just under 40% of the time just being rolled, without penalties for low Loyalty or morale shattering events (like surprise attacks, half the Hirelings already being dead, etc).

Tactics sounds like pretty much RAW. Anyway, that's the way I've always viewed it.

I added more to what Tactics does (trying different things over time), and give Strategy actual uses (mostly in the planning stage) as I've found if you hew to what little they do "by RAW" eventually Players realize just ignoring those skills and pumping the primary "dungeon delving skills" is more valuable.

It's the 'ye olde Thief' problem, the problem being Thief as a profession template is terrible and superfluous. So you either need to build your adventures around making the Thief uniquely useful* (mildly difficult and annoying) or accept that no one will want to play a Thief* (which is what I've done, and then toss int he stuff I normally would and let the PCs suffer for not having a Thief).


* The parallel here being either you need to make non-combat skills more broadly useful (more applications and more opportunities to use them) or accept that the PCs will prefer minor inconveniences for not having them as they focus more solely on the core delving skills for their professions.

Yes, to START.

I've found it isn't just "to start'. If you run DFRPG "as it's meant", or even close to it, you'll find that combat and magic skills (and to a slightly lesser extent the physical delving skills) are the primary skills PCs will care about.

The "succeed or die" skills.

They will absolutely preference those skills as failing those skills means death, where failing a Social Skill rarely does.

So, as I've found, if you want them to respect Social Skills the stakes need to be a bit higher... which means if they're failing them all the time (12s really do suck), Players will feel as though they're being punished for making Characters by the book. It's something to think about and why I give out slightly more points so PCs can get to 13-14s in a few social and other Background skills. Because while those skills are rarely "succeed or die" skills, they come close.

Also it is good that Bard actually has SOMETHING to be good at.

They aren't just 'good' at Social. They will wreck your attempt to make Social Skills broadly useful if there is a Bard in the party. They are so much better... it's like if you have a Knight and a party full of Wizards in a No Mana Zone. The Knight will rock, the Wizards will feel useless. The Bard is so good at social they will dominate any normal social encounter or test you face the group with, unless it's very penalized in which case no one but the Bard will even have a shot.

Bards completely wreck normal Social party dynamics.

Okay, at least that's been my experiences with Players making Very Handsome, very Charismatic Bards. If they go the high Bard Song, Luck, or Wealth route, your experience will likely differ.

And if a Player tries to get you to allow them to play a Bard of the Nymph race from DF 3 The Next Level, just say no.

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Diplomacy is different from other influence rolls (Exploits pg 10) in that "Exception: If you used Diplomacy, the GM will also make a regular reaction roll and use the better of the two reactions."

Huh. I'm so used to regular GURPS I didn't notice the shift to not making Reaction Rolls first, Influence rolls second. Hah, I still do it the old way, but yeah, I can see this being a strong shift to reduce rolls and preference PC skills...

Anyway, in this case if the PC has both Leadership and Born War Leader I treat Leadership the way Diplomacy works This makes the Knight and Holy Warrior able to give commands as well as the Wizard...

(Leadership is an IQ skill, Wizards tend to easily have very good Social Skills just by putting a point or two into those skills and thus are better than other templates that have to put in twice or more points to be as good. Wizards tend to be the biggest problems in my games with the "stepping on other's roles", both with Social skills and helping make Thief completely unnecessary.)

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by mburr0003

It'll fail just under 40% of the time just being rolled, without penalties for low Loyalty or morale shattering events (like surprise attacks, half the Hirelings already being dead, etc).

Nitpick: 12 or lower fails only 25% of the time, not 40%. 12 is actually pretty good IMO, though of course it depends on what's at stake.

Originally Posted by mburr0003

(Leadership is an IQ skill, Wizards tend to easily have very good Social Skills just by putting a point or two into those skills and thus are better than other templates that have to put in twice or more points to be as good. Wizards tend to be the biggest problems in my games with the "stepping on other's roles", both with Social skills and helping make Thief completely unnecessary.)

Bards, clerics, and druids are also good at rendering thieves unnecessary. In the case of leadership or tactics skill I'd recommend giving that responsibility to the cleric, both because it's thematic and because clerics need something to do while they're hiding safely in the rear. Playing general is as good an option as any.

"Sons of Mother Church, smite now the orcish hordes! For your wives and children's sake, stand fast, and may the One Above All guide your aim!"

[restlessgriffin]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

Bards, clerics, and druids are also good at rendering thieves unnecessary. In the case of leadership or tactics skill I'd recommend giving that responsibility to the cleric, both because it's thematic and because clerics need something to do while they're hiding safely in the rear. Playing general is as good an option as any.

Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.

Trap detection is based on Per, so e.g. a druid with one Quirk point in Traps plus a nice Keen (Sight) +5 spell from a bard or wizard detects at Traps-18, better than a Thief normally does (Per 14 +1 = Traps-15). Moreover the druid can do it all REMOTELY via Rider Within on a created animal or one controlled via Control Animal.

Trap-disarming (DX-based) and trap-creating (IQ-based) tend to be less important (e.g. avoid the trap or have a monkey or a wizard with Apportation set it off), but druids/bards/clerics/wizards are all good at trap creation anyway due to high IQ. Lockpicking and trap disarming can go on any high-DX character (Swashbucklers excel at important lockpicking due to Luck).

Sneaking past sentries: druids are best (Create Animal + Rider Within), bards are good (Stealth + Hush spell, or just Loyalty), clerics are not good. (Wizards with Wizard Eye or illusions with Initiative are even better than druids unless it's necessary to physically interact, e.g. open doors.)

Backstabbing enemies is just a subset of killing enemies, which almost anyone can do. E.g. an Elven Bard with Resist Sound on friendlies throws a Concussion and then uses Song of Humiliation to stun whoever made their HT-3 roll; or a druid's conjured wolves rip an enemy to shreds with All Out Attack (double); or a cleric invests enough in Innate Attack to reliably hit enemies in the face/skull with 2d6 Sun Bolt for 1 FP. And it's not like they can't do these things from a backstab--the elven bard in particular can succeed on a backstab roll most of the time, but maybe won't want to because backstabbing puts you in the middle of the enemies and leaves you vulnerable to being surrounded. But backstabbing isn't even restricted to thieves.

Anyway, in the context of this thread, Leadership and clerics is a good fit. (Ditto Tactics.)

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by restlessgriffin

Why? Thieves mostly detect traps and disarm them, pick locks and open doors, sneak past sentries and backstab enemies. How do Bards, Clerics, and Druids replace these functions typically performed by thieves.

sjmdw45 does a great job of answering this in depth, but simply: High IQ characters replace half of what a Thief does and a high HP one replaces the other half.

Or just Barbarian it all (even sneaking, it's an average skill based on DX which Barbarian usually have at least 13 in).

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

... a monkey ...

Whoa! We call them Barbarians now sir. Or easily tricked Hireling...

Backstabbing enemies is just a subset of killing enemies, which almost anyone can do.

Yup, everyone but Thiefs...

[Expy]

I've never been able to play as a PC in this system but I've always wanted to run a more social/leadership Knight. Lots of BWL talent, bit of appearance.

Two extra levels of Born War Leader and Attractive gives a total +6 on the initial roll to determine Loyalty for any fighter type, assuming you win the Leadership check for the extra +1. The IQ roll to find hirelings will be tough but other party members can lend complimentary rolls to help you, and you can roll Carousing or something to give yourself a bit of a buff also.

For combat, I think its best to leave the GM controlling but let the player decide how to train their hirelings to act. Then, if you want them to act outside their programming so to speak, you take a Do Nothing manoeuvre and make a Leadership check to give new orders. 62 pointers I'd expect to be treated like fodder, no complex turns; 125 can maybe throw something in now and then.

You could allow players to control hirelings/allies and tax them CP if they abuse that control (poor roleplaying), or step in if they're doing something out of character. I've never done it that way, but I've also never had a player wanting hordes of hired help. They way I saw it recommended that seemed interesting was player B controls Player A's minions and vice versa.