How Much Food is in an Urban US Armory?

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

<shrug> I can't say whe canned hard tack was first issued for exercises but it's generally accepted that US troops in the Civil War were issued hard tack stocked for the Mexican-American War and troops in the Spanish-American War were still working on the back log from Civil War stocks. Nothing mentioned about Spanish-American War stocks.

Before WWI hard tack was baked twice (and sometimes baked 4 times) and left to air-dry for as long as 6 months. The weevils got into it then

Fair enough.

It would likely be a doctorate worthy dive into multiple archives (federal and multiple states) to get a comprehensive idea of exactly what the multiple Committees, Commissions, and Divisions of Supply (State and Federal) were doing. (With multiple organizations in many of the States and certainly at the Federal level I am pretty sure THEY did not really know in 1860-5)

Then there arises the fact that significant portions of what troops got caloric intake from came from private sources, suttlers and care packages from home.

I know some of the vast aggregation of above sources provided canned goods, but I am too old to pursue a doctorate now, so I am not going to try to point at a specific time and item.

I think we have provided a few ideas to the OP though.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Witchking

I know some of the vast aggregation of above sources provided canned goods, .

One possibility is that the canned goods were an early form of "B" rations and they were big cans for people running mess halls. I don't think canned good in individual potions were seen until well after the Civil War.

A mess hall of some size is one of the possibilities for the OP's installation. Such a place should (by theory) be providing "A" rations (fresh food freshly prepared)but for a place only intermittantly active "B" rations in large cans or other institional packagei9ng might be kept on hand for quick start ups until the "A" rations can be ordered and come in.

Besides big cans of pork and beans another common sight might be the 5 lb blocks of cheese the Dept of Agriculture bought to keep the price up and then provided to school cafeterias, food stamp recipients and gawd only knows who else. Those might actually be semi-usefgul to people living out of their backpacks.

......and yes, this means that Dept. of Agriculture did have big warehouses of shelf stable food products acquired as a part of price support programs. That sort of thing was still in full swing in the early 80s.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

One possibility is that the canned goods were an early form of "B" rations and they were big cans for people running mess halls. I don't think canned good in individual potions were seen until well after the Civil War.

Sadly calling them a 'ration' implies a level of organization that the Union Army just did not have, CSA (being advocates of individual states v singular federal government) even less so. In the mass of disorganization the supply situation might have been the one in most disarray.

My understanding is the 'ration' is what a soldier SHOULD receive daily (with a healthy dab of 'this can be substituted for that'). Beef might be fresh killed from herds driven behind the army or salt pork from the barrel or new fangled cans. Same for 'bread' or 'vegetable'.

It would be drawn by the unit (usually regiment) then issued to the men. What the ration would be could vary wildly from issue to issue.

Cooking and other preparation was catch as catch can with the men grouping up to do the work. The unit TOE carrying most of the needed kettles etc.

Regiments had ONE LT as the supply/commissary officer with NO dedicated troops to supply. Said LT would draw from line troops as needed to do the work. (Calvary units apparently had two LTs on the job).

Since LT is arguably the rank that has the worst casualty rate (and given endemic shortages of officers) this job was often either unfilled or done by a line officer in his 'free time'. So I expect it was a fairly direct issue -> distribute model with the men responsible from there.

Canned goods might appear in the 'ration' issue, purchased from the suttler, in a care package from home, or 'locally aquired'. The only standardization would be if a (state or federal) Committee of Supply bought a large block of can X and the unit got a lot of cans in the issue 'ration'.

Or buying out the suttler I guess.

Continuing the theme I doubt there was any consistency regarding can size either. From what I could Google up they might not have standardized til 1901 when the American Can Company was founded 'at the time producing 90% of US steel cans'. So small to huge I assume the army saw them all.

Kind of amazing what both sides managed to do with such a ramshackle organizational skeleton.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by (E)

If there is a commissary or canteen attached to the armoury there might be in transit supplies nearby or even passing through...

The good "there's a truck load of food'
The bad "it's outside in the radiation"
The ugly "it's all canned beans"

I think there was a similar Easter egg unmarked quest in Fallout 4 (albeit not for food that I recall) where one of the military bases had some goods that were meant to be stored there, and after searching the place you could find a terminal message saying they were coming in overnight by truck the day the bombs fell. That truck was actually in the game, out there on the roads of the Commonwealth.

Originally Posted by Witchking

Sadly calling them a 'ration' implies a level of organization that the Union Army just did not have, CSA (being advocates of individual states v singular federal government) even less so. In the mass of disorganization the supply situation might have been the in most disarray.

My understanding is the 'ration' is what a soldier SHOULD receive daily (with a healthy dab of 'this can be substituted for that'). Beef might be fresh killed from herds driven behind the army or salt pork from the barrel or new fangled cans. Same for 'bread' or 'vegetable'.

It would be drawn by the unit (usually regiment) then issued to the men. What the ration would be could vary wildly from issue to issue.

Cooking and other preparation was catch as catch can with the men grouping up to do the work. The unit TOE carrying most of the needed kettles etc.

Regiments had ONE LT as the supply/commissary officer with NO dedicated troops to supply. Said LT would draw from line troops as needed to do the work. (Calvary units apparently had two LTs on the job).

Since LT is arguably the rank that has the worst casualty rate (and given endemic shortages of officers) this job was often either unfilled or done by a line officer in his 'free time'. So I expect it was a fairly direct issue -> distribute model with the men responsible from there.

Canned goods might appear in the 'ration' issue, purchased from the suttler, in a care package from home, or 'locally aquired'. The only standardization would be if a (state or federal) Committee of Supply bought a large block of can X and the unit got a lot of cans in the issue 'ration'.

Or buying out the suttler I guess.

Continuing the theme I doubt there was any consistency regarding can size either. From what I could Google up they might not have standardized til 1901 when the American Can Company was founded 'at the time producing 90% of US steel cans'. So small to huge I assume the army saw them all.

Kind of amazing what both sides managed to do with such a ramshackle organizational skeleton.

presumably those were the same tins that they fished out of the Mississippi mud in the 1960s and were found safe, although not especially enticing, to eat (to be fair, they might not have been all that pleasant when newly made)...and then there were the "desecrated vegetables".

Not sure if the US army was the same, but in the British Army of the C19, the Quartermaster officer was often an ex-ranker and rarely found in combat (unless, presumably, the enemy got into the baggage train).

As for modern military supplies, my very limited experience suggests that - especially for territorial units (our equivalent of the National Guard) stores for a deployment have a tendency to roll up on the Friday before a weekend deployment (unless they don't...), often by civilian contractor ... but then the UK is a small place and nowhere (not on the mainland certainly) is out of range of overnight shipment. That is to say, that you'd be sorely disappointed searching a British base for more than a very limited supply of GP rations.

Besides MREs, does the US have an equivalent of the 10-man box? That is, a catering size ration pack, designed to give the ration assassins a halfway house cooking from fresh and giving up and putting everyone on filed rations?

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Not sure if the US army was the same, but in the British Army of the C19, the Quartermaster officer was often an ex-ranker and rarely found in combat (unless, presumably, the enemy got into the baggage train).

I cannot speak to the Peacetime 1850s US Army...or the Postwar 1860-1880s, tho since the US Army (and country) was less class rigid than the UK I doubt it was specifically an ex-ranker. Mavericks being IMHO more of a thing for US Army than British. An ex-ranker could end up with any rank suitable job.

Once the balloon went up on the Civil War any long term soldier, physically fit to serve, was likely an officer somewhere. Excepting of course irredeemable reprobates. With the tiny size of 1850's US Army (then half of that roughly becoming the CSA) the need for officers for newly created Regiments (state and federal) was just too great. A quartermaster position would likely be held by a former civilian, unless the regular QM in question just would not/could not handle anything else.

Best example is probably Grant.

A captain resigned under a cloud in 1854, a failure in civilian life, with a reputation as a drunkard which likely caused him to be rejected by 2 different 'Regular Army' Generals when he applied for recommision. With help from a fairy Congressman he was appointed an aide to the Gov of Illinois and less than two months later promoted to Colonel (Vol).

Two months later Brig General (Vol).

Seven months later Maj General (Vol).

Seven months later Maj General (Regular Army instead of Volunteers *Militia*)

1 year later Lt General A rank previously only held by Geo Washington.

27 months later (Peacetime promotion lol) Congress creates a new rank 'General of the Armies' (5 star) and promotes him into it.

Both Armies were desperate for officers.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

Besides MREs, does the US have an equivalent of the 10-man box? That is, a catering size ration pack, designed to give the ration assassins a halfway house cooking from fresh and giving up and putting everyone on filed rations?

Those would probably count as "B" rations and there's less detail on those than "C" rations. Wiki articles on "C" rations are lovingly detailed by ex-grunts but "B" rations were dealt with by a much smaller group.

All I know is that "B" rations were still for mess halls or field kitchens and I suspect they came in larger packages than the individual "C" rations.

[thrash]

Somewhat wordy discussion of current and recently historical rations, from the (US) Army Quartermaster Foundation: The Army Family of Rations.

[The Colonel]

Originally Posted by thrash

Somewhat wordy discussion of current and recently historical rations, from the (US) Army Quartermaster Foundation: The Army Family of Rations.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Those would probably count as "B" rations and there's less detail on those than "C" rations. Wiki articles on "C" rations are lovingly detailed by ex-grunts but "B" rations were dealt with by a much smaller group.

All I know is that "B" rations were still for mess halls or field kitchens and I suspect they came in larger packages than the individual "C" rations.

B-rations certainly sound like a bigger box version from that description. That article reminds me - flameless ration heaters ... if you're using them, how do you boil water for tea/coffee (or washing and shaving for that matter?) ... especially since as far as I know, only HM forces have boiling vessels in their AFVs...

[thrash]

Originally Posted by The Colonel

That article reminds me - flameless ration heaters ... if you're using them, how do you boil water for tea/coffee (or washing and shaving for that matter?)

You don't. They are okay for warming up foil packs of food, not so much for anything else. They get hot enough to burn skin, but not to boil water. (Cue horror stories about recruits trying to use them as hand-warmers, etc.)

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by thrash

You don't. They are okay for warming up foil packs of food, not so much for anything else. They get hot enough to burn skin, but not to boil water.

Well, at least if used according to the directions. MREs are flammable.