Combatives martial arts styles

[Lord Carnifex]

Luther's version of Old-Style Brazilian Juijutsu ought to work well... perhaps a more modern grappling/groundfighting style incorporating Juijutsu elements might look like:

Combative Juijutsu
Primary skills: Wrestling
Secondary skills: Judo, Brawling
Maneuvers: Arm lock, Choke Hold, Ground Fighting (Wrestling), Ground Fighting (Brawling), Head Lock, Leg Grapple.

[note:] I make wrestling the primary skill here, because the style emphasises going to the ground with your opponent (which I see as GURPS Wrestling skill) rather than throwing your opponent to the ground while you remain upright (which I see as being more the province of GURPS Judo Skill).

It's not a stand alone art... you'd probably want to train it in conjunction with Muay Thai, Kali (GURPS 3e Escrima), or Jun Fan (GURPS 3e Jeet Kune Do) or some form of upright military hand-to-hand.

The thing to remember is that while Gracie Juijutsu is a very effective, very efficient style for groundfighting, it does not particularily emphasise upright fighting or speedy resoultion. A juijutsu fighter will usually be looking to take an opponent to the ground and force him to submit through manuvering and endurance. In a modern battlefield or street-fighting situation, there's often not much opportunity for one-on-one fighting, and going to the ground is not always a good idea.

[Luther]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Luther's version of Old-Style Brazilian Juijutsu ought to work well...

Yep, altough I forgot to add Ground Fighting (Brawling) -- edited now.

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

The thing to remember is that while Gracie Juijutsu is a very effective, very efficient style for groundfighting, it does not particularily emphasise upright fighting or speedy resoultion. A juijutsu fighter will usually be looking to take an opponent to the ground and force him to submit through manuvering and endurance. In a modern battlefield or street-fighting situation, there's often not much opportunity for one-on-one fighting, and going to the ground is not always a good idea.

Actually the purpose of ground fighting is to finish the opponent faster too. On the ground it is much easier to knock out or incapacitate your enemy. I agree that one-on-one isn't very common, but unarmed hand to hand is a last restort anyway, and going to the ground is fairly common in real fights, so you have to be prepared.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Toadkiller_Dog

You should require them to pay for this, unless the intention is that they cannot do normal parries but still do APs at the normal default.

The intention was indeed that normal parries were impossible and that Agressive Parries were made at the normal default.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnifex

Luther's version of Old-Style Brazilian Juijutsu ought to work well... perhaps a more modern grappling/groundfighting style incorporating Juijutsu elements might look like:

Okay, nice.

The US Army learns moves from BJJ as well as more traditional military hand to hand.

How would we write up their curriculum? I am reasonably sure that the Wrestling elements would be shorn from the style in favour of Judo (more efficient in game terms) and that Knife and Spear would feature as secondary skills. Disarm and Arm Lock would be emphasised, but since BJJ is specifically mentioned and not just any other variety of grappling, I presume that ground-fighting is taught extensively.

[The Cardinal]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Systema Cost: 23/-

Primary skills: Brawling, Judo, Karate
Secondary Skills: Knife and any three of the following Axe/Mace, Broadsword, Spear, Short Sword, Staff, Two-handed Axe/Mace
Optional skills: Other weapons, Scrounging, Survival, Body Language
Manoeuvres: Aggressive Parry, Arm Lock, Breakfall, Choke Hold, Close-combat (Knife), Disarming (Judo), Elbow Strike, Eye Gouging (Karate), Finger Lock, Ground Fighting (Judo), Head Butt, Head Lock, Hit Location (Brawling, Karate or Knife), Knee Strike, Neck Snap, Stamp Kick

This version of Systema assumes that the various armed techniques taught by the Spetznaz are included and as it is presented here, most people would never master the style but instead only learn the basics (covered by Military Hand to Hand).

Around here (Germany) Systema definitely includes Whip as a Secondary Skill - not just the traditional nagaika (or nagayka) whip but also "normal" whips and improvised weapons like chains, a section of garden hose, etc.
Also the Shield skill is sometimes taught in conjunction with the Broadsword skill (in Systema broadsword training often means training with a cavalry sabre, the shashka)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyka

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Icelander

The US Army learns moves from BJJ as well as more traditional military hand to hand.

They do? When? I was under the impression that they learned some basic HTH in basic training and that was it. IME, the only Soldiers that I've met who were Martial Artists had studied something else on the side. AFAICT they don't have anything like MCAP. I suppose I could ask my sister, though.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They do? When? I was under the impression that they learned some basic HTH in basic training and that was it. IME, the only Soldiers that I've met who were Martial Artists had studied something else on the side. AFAICT they don't have anything like MCAP. I suppose I could ask my sister, though.

this point bears repeating. Hand to hand stuff can probably be loosely grouped into three or four categories. Longer-distance pummeling, close in standup/transition, ground fighting, and maybe "weapon assist."

All hand-to-hand unarmed combat is defined by the limits of human anatomy. Striking is bringing a hard part of your body against a vulerable part of theirs. This can be hard (strike bones or vulnerable squishy bits) or soft (cripple joints). Takedowns, throws, close-in work, and transitions work against balance. "Sweep the leg!" Grappling and ground fighting takes these principles and adds constant contact with a surface. But all are defined by human frailty and power, and so you can't necessarily look at a strike and say "Oh, that's clearly a Hwa Rang Do spear hand!" You could just as easily say "that spear hand technique was lifted from a greek vase thousands of years ago," and still be entirely correct.

Just because a move looks BJJ-ish doens't necessarily make it BJJ. Or anything else. A lot of millitary training is not a martial art at all, but a short list of very effective fighting techniques.

Just like the guy who won an all-comers sparring tournament with one single technique (a really fast reverse punch), you can do a lot with a handful of brutally efficient blows, takedowns, and submissions. You don't have a ton of time, in most cases, to turn soldiers into a Fighting Force of Incredible Magnitude.

I do sorta wish GURPS had gone with some of the other breakdowns for 4e, like Punch, Kick, Takedown, Grapple, or any of the variants discussed in previous threads on this topic. Some of the similarities and differences between styles would have been more apparent. Ship's sailed, tho. :-)

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

They do? When? I was under the impression that they learned some basic HTH in basic training and that was it. IME, the only Soldiers that I've met who were Martial Artists had studied something else on the side. AFAICT they don't have anything like MCAP. I suppose I could ask my sister, though.

Since 2002, when Matt Larsen wrote FM3-25.150, a modern combative art based on BJJ has been official Army doctrine.

Rorion and Royce Gracie has even trained Army Rangers from the 75th who then go on to become instructors.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by The Cardinal

Around here (Germany) Systema definitely includes Whip as a Secondary Skill - not just the traditional nagaika (or nagayka) whip but also "normal" whips and improvised weapons like chains, a section of garden hose, etc.
Also the Shield skill is sometimes taught in conjunction with the Broadsword skill (in Systema broadsword training often means training with a cavalry sabre, the shashka)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shashka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagyka

Will alter.

Where you are, is Systema taught as a hobby with an emphasis on the historical roots, or is it taught as a self-defence method?

[Icelander]

Douglas Cole:

I hear you and agree about the point of soldiers having to learn the most efficient and simple techniques if they are to be effective. That is one of the reasons Matt Larsen based his modern combatives style on BJJ. He felt that it was a style that worked in reality and if modified by people with actual combat experience, it should be very effective after only a short training period.