[DF] Dragonlance

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

Go for GURPSifying rather than emulation or rule-to-rule translation.

Well D&D to GURPS is closer to GURPSifying so "emulation" was likely the wrong term to use.

Originally Posted by Polydamas

I would recommend strongly trimming the spell list, because the 'utilitarian, many-small-castings' nature of GURPS magic is different from the low-magic setting.

I was a Dragonlance fan too long ago to have thoughts about what kinds of magic seem to belong in the setting, but its not the kind of setting where mages are like any other kind of artisan billing by the day.

"Low Magic" in GURPS doesn't fit what any D&D setting that I remember.

The wiki sums up Low Magic as "The magical equivalent of home remedies. It is magic that anybody might pick up, without systematic formal study, and used in everyday life or emergencies."

It is Craft Magic, Mysteries of the Trade, Oaths, and Single Spells (instinctive or learned under stress, picked up as a knack)

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by maximara

"Low Magic" in GURPS doesn't fit what any D&D setting that I remember.

The wiki sums up Low Magic as "The magical equivalent of home remedies. It is magic that anybody might pick up, without systematic formal study, and used in everyday life or emergencies."

So? It's a wiki. It's not an official source. That definition is based on the opinion of whatever individual wrote the article. "Low Magic" could just as easily refer to a setting with universal low mana, or with strict Magery caps, even if the spells and mechanics were identical to the normal rules.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

So? It's a wiki. It's not an official source. That definition is based on the opinion of whatever individual wrote the article.

"Low magic is the magical equivalent of home remedies." and contains Craft Magic, Mysteries of the Trade, Oaths, Single Spells, and True Faith as sub listings.

That section is followed by Formulaic magic.

Also the wiki has the following references
* GURPS Fantasy 160
* GURPS Magic Items 3 pg 24
* GURPS Fantasy pg 162-3
* GURPS Fantasy pg 147

So it did shuffle things around a bit but it was likely to make them flow a little better.

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

"Low Magic" could just as easily refer to a setting with universal low mana, or with strict Magery caps, even if the spells and mechanics were identical to the normal rules.

Assuming mana based magic that would likely fall under High Fantasy (Fantasy pg 6)

I say mana based magic because "Unified Metaphysical Theories / Magical Psi" (GURPS Powers pg 181) states "In some settings, “magic” and “psi” both tap the same energies, in one case by study and formal disciplines, in the other by raw talent and willpower."

The Fanmade Five Earths, All in a Row setting mixes this idea with Roma Arcana's idea that spirits rather than some energy power magic. This is how Fantasy Earth has magic and spells even though it is No Mana.

GURPS is not just a toolbox but a lego set.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by maximara

"Low magic is the magical equivalent of home remedies." and contains Craft Magic, Mysteries of the Trade, Oaths, Single Spells, and True Faith as sub listings.

That section is followed by Formulaic magic.

Also the wiki has the following references
* GURPS Fantasy 160
* GURPS Magic Items 3 pg 24
* GURPS Fantasy pg 162-3
* GURPS Fantasy pg 147

So it did shuffle things around a bit but it was likely to make them flow a little better.



Assuming mana based magic that would likely fall under High Fantasy (Fantasy pg 6)

I say mana based magic because "Unified Metaphysical Theories / Magical Psi" (GURPS Powers pg 181) states "In some settings, “magic” and “psi” both tap the same energies, in one case by study and formal disciplines, in the other by raw talent and willpower."

The Fanmade Five Earths, All in a Row setting mixes this idea with Roma Arcana's idea that spirits rather than some energy power magic. This is how Fantasy Earth has magic and spells even though it is No Mana.

GURPS is not just a toolbox but a lego set.

I will say that I didn't know this came from (read: was copied word-for-word from. The wiki probably really shouldn't do that.) an actual GURPS book, so I'll rephrase my original point: You're reading far too much into the phrase "low magic". It's not being used a term of art. When people say "low-magic", they just mean a setting without much magic. They almost certainly have absolutely no idea it was ever used in a GURPS book with a specific definition.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by awesomenessofme1

You're reading far too much into the phrase "low magic". It's not being used a term of art. When people say "low-magic", they just mean a setting without much magic. They almost certainly have absolutely no idea it was ever used in a GURPS book with a specific definition.

I'm just using the definition for "Low Magic" GURPS Fantasy gives us. "Low magic" on wikipedia has a totally different meaning (relating to Satanic magic).

GURPS uses "High Fantasy" to describe rare magic settings. What magic exists is focused in a handful of items or people or limited to deities.

For example, Greek Mythology would be "High Fantasy" as spell casting by even demigods is next to nil. What magic does exist is the product of the gods or potions. Actual spell casting is effectively absent.

Low fantasy by contrast is the setting where magic is common and a part of everyday life. Merlin-1 is a Low fantasy setting.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by maximara

I'm just using the definition for "Low Magic" GURPS Fantasy gives us. "Low magic" on wikipedia has a totally different meaning (relating to Satanic magic).

GURPS uses "High Fantasy" to describe rare magic settings. What magic exists is focused in a handful of items or people or limited to deities.

For example, Greek Mythology would be "High Fantasy" as spell casting by even demigods is next to nil. What magic does exist is the product of the gods or potions. Actual spell casting is effectively absent.

Low fantasy by contrast is the setting where magic is common and a part of everyday life. Merlin-1 is a Low fantasy setting.

You're either overlooking or ignoring my actual point, and then the rest of the reply is just completely irrelevant. The context of the original post is very clear that by "low magic", they just mean that magic is rare in the setting. They're not using any specific, esoteric definition of the term. It's just the word low being used as a normal adjective.

[Opellulo]

All the aspects are easily emulable, BUT I would suggest to trim down the many allignment-based rules: Dragonlance magic was a headache because appartently in the '80 it was perfectly sound to constantly track a complex three Moon phase calendar on top of the nonsensical 2Ed rules... Only to have Black robes incapable of throwing a fireball.

Same goes for Knight of Solamnia: 3 different classes for the same character archetype.. And for what I remember the Knight of the Rose was basically OP.

...also somebody said kender?

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Opellulo

All the aspects are easily emulable, BUT I would suggest to trim down the many allignment-based rules: Dragonlance magic was a headache because appartently in the '80 it was perfectly sound to constantly track a complex three Moon phase calendar on top of the nonsensical 2Ed rules... Only to have Black robes incapable of throwing a fireball.

Same goes for Knight of Solamnia: 3 different classes for the same character archetype.. And for what I remember the Knight of the Rose was basically OP.

...also somebody said kender?

Actually, 1Ed dominated the 80s with 2Ed starting to come out in 1989 but even then rule incompatibility was an issue. If you tried to have Oriental Adventures and regular character together the Western characters came off as underpowered. The Unearthed Arcana upped the power of the Western characters and added to the rule bloat.

As the Gamespy article "Magic & Memories: The Complete History of Dungeons & Dragons - Part III" relates D&D during 2Ed became highly Balkanized with settings like Forgotten Realms and Planescape having every widening and incompatible rule systems.

The Complete (insert name of class here) Handbooks just aggravated the problem.

Regarding the kender that showed up in Dragon #101; love the expression on the magic-users' face — classic "I should have stayed in bed" look.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by maximara

As the Gamespy article "Magic & Memories: The Complete History of Dungeons & Dragons - Part III" relates D&D during 2Ed became highly Balkanized with settings like Forgotten Realms and Planescape having every widening and incompatible rule systems.

The Complete (insert name of class here) Handbooks just aggravated the problem.

The same happened in 3e though: in some groups, players came brandishing random poorly-playtested third-party supliments. If you leveraged the loopholes (or cross-referenced multiple books from different sources) you could do all kinds of strange things. And in every edition of D&D there are all kinds of house rules and eccentric readings of the core books.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The same happened in 3e though: in some groups, players came brandishing random poorly-playtested third-party supliments. If you leveraged the loopholes (or cross-referenced multiple books from different sources) you could do all kinds of strange things. And in every edition of D&D there are all kinds of house rules and eccentric readings of the core books.

But some of the problems were from a straight reading of the rules.

As the wiki (with references) points out Dungeon Fantasy 1: Adventurers suggestions of requiring "heroes to spend $40+ per point for “guild training” before they can “level up” and gain new abilities" is a majorly bad idea as demonstrated by AD&D1e's 1500 gp/level/week (DMG1e pg 86) "Once a character has points which are equal to or greater than the minimum number necessary to move upward in experience level, no further experience points can be gained until the character actually gains the new level."

The Dragon #97 (May 1985) article "Only Train When You Gain" outlined why this was (and is) a bad idea: "The DM, who sees that he is losing the players’ interest, realizes he must do something. It is at this point that he takes the first step toward a Monty Haul campaign. Whether from the players’ urgings to do something and stop being "“unfair",” or as the DM’s own idea, the next group of orcs the characters kill happened to be guarding a chest full of 8,000 gp, instead of the normal copper or silver, and a magic item that can be sold for additional gold. By some coincidence, this is just enough money to pay for everyone’s training."

"If gold is given away in large amounts, magic generally flows much more freely as well, allowing characters to grow ultra-powerful and creating a Monty-Haul campaign that quickly becomes tiresome for both DM and players". Wise GMs should just ignore this idea as it was bad was dropped in AD&D2 (1989) for a reason.

Why somebody thought suggesting a GURPSifyed rule that resulted into so many broken campaigns that it was abandoned over 20 years ago is beyond me.