Question about character attribute totals and break downs among PCs?

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Taking this approach, one buys the first few UC talents to gain a penalty on kicks, which seems an odd way to look at it.

My view is more simple than that and is independent of the UC examples. This view applies to just about everything. The reduction of a penalty is still a penalty until it is reduced to zero. The reduction of a bonus (gain) is still a bonus until it is reduced to zero. Need I point to our many politicians that wrongly claim that a reduction of an increase in a budget is a horrible cut?

The kick option itself is a gain but it comes with a DX penalty and BHD bonus. As I understand it, it's not just a second attack penalty. You have the penalty even if it's your only attack. The DX penalty decreases and the damage bonus increases as you progress the UC levels.

Personally, I have no problem with the DX associations in the UC talents. I used to accept them while still being suspicious of them. Then, I was employed in hospital security and later became friends and acquaintances with several people that were into various martial arts and my son was involved with Tae Kwon Do for a few years. My prior suspicions of the DX relationships in the TFT UC talents vanished. Also, as a result of this later acquired knowledge of real-life UC talents, I house rule that they can be coupled with any other weapon talent in so that all of the defense/evasion bonuses still apply while wielding the weapon. Of course, the BHD and HTH bonuses no longer apply to a weapon while the maximum armor allowance remains at cloth.

There are many martial arts with added specialties in knives/blades, staves, canes, etc. They don't lose all their abilities just because they pick something up. So, the UC 1 requirement that the hands be empty only applies the BHD and HTH bonuses. I allow an exception for the Cestus because it basically becomes a part of the hand and modifies BHD and HTH per ITL. Again, the character would still be required to have the appropriate weapons talents, expertise, etc. to gain bonuses with that weapon.

I remember a conversation that I had with a black belted friend. He asked about my security training. I described it as mostly ways to deal with combative patients where the goal is to restrain and not hurt them but we were also trained to be prepared for various non-patient belligerents (Plenty of violent people in the ER after midnight). So, I told him that in a life or death altercation, this same training was useful especially after lifting the requirement of not hurting your foe. He agreed but made the following statement that was very correct. "You're just martial. There's nothing artful about you." LOL! Very true considering that I'm built like a tree stump. We still laugh about that one. Aside from being a high level engineer in his day job, he is a Brazilian Jujitsu black belt and instructor that also holds various degrees of black belts in Tae Kwon Do, Silat (a knife/blade based martial art discipline), and at least, one or two others that I can't remember. Before COVID, he periodically traveled to Indonesia to study Silat under some master there.

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Taking this approach, one buys the first few UC talents to gain a penalty on kicks, which seems an odd way to look at it.

A better way to have written this, perhaps, would be to add a default rule that kicking an opponent (when hands are tied, for example) is -4 DX and with no bonus to damage. UC I adds a bonus to damage, but none 'to hit' while UC II provides +2 DX (reducing the penalty to -2) and also adding bonus damage. Each subsequent UC talent provides additional bonuses as presented.

TBH, I'm not convinced UC talents are worth the investment as written.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

A better way to have written this, perhaps, would be to add a default rule that kicking an opponent (when hands are tied, for example) is -4 DX and with no bonus to damage. UC I adds a bonus to damage, but none 'to hit' while UC II provides +2 DX (reducing the penalty to -2) and also adding bonus damage. Each subsequent UC talent provides additional bonus as presented.

TBH, I'm not convinced UC talents are worth the investment as written.

Under Classic TFT, it was tough but I did see it successfully developed in a very small handful of characters. One was a squad of about 4 humans with some dependence on other weapons skills but HTH was very effective. Another was a squad of Reptile Men with varied UC levels that was quite lethal but not invincible by any means. However, the NERFing of the Reptile Men in Legacy TFT has made this a less likely occurrence. I have generated a Legacy TFT Reptile Man that is on the UC path but, he only has UC 1 with Crossbow and Missile Weapons. Right now, he's more dependent upon his crossbow but can deal out twice human damage on HTH when the distance is gone. He's an experiment for me in the new Legacy TFT system.

Once they get above UC 1, they start being progressively harder to hit and their extra BHD/HTH starts to help. However, since they are lightly armored, once a hit does occur, it can get ugly for them. Moving in a group does make them more effective unless they are high enough in the UC list to start being an effective assassin type.

[hcobb]

My take on the same:

Kaikamo, Reptile Person, age 20
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 10, MA 10
Talents: Acute Hearing, Crossbow, Dancer, Literacy, Missile Weapons, Swimming, Toughness, Unarmed Combat I
Languages: Common, Reptile Person
Weapon: light crossbow (2d)
Attacks and Damage: Claws (1d+1; doubled in HTH), Tail (1d+1)
Armor: Toughness stops 1 hit
Equipment: 20 silver quarrels, etc.
Kaikamo has Dancer as her mundane talent as part of her Okihuelo fighting style which uses tail attacks in combination with the claws. Someday she'll learn UC V, should she survive the next 30 years.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by hcobb

My take on the same:

Kaikamo, Reptile Person, age 20
ST 12, DX 10, IQ 10, MA 10
Talents: Acute Hearing, Crossbow, Dancer, Literacy, Missile Weapons, Swimming, Toughness, Unarmed Combat I
Languages: Common, Reptile Person
Weapon: light crossbow (2d)
Attacks and Damage: Claws (1d+1; doubled in HTH), Tail (1d+1)
Armor: Toughness stops 1 hit
Equipment: 20 silver quarrels, etc.
Kaikamo has Dancer as her mundane talent as part of her Okihuelo fighting style which uses tail attacks in combination with the claws. Someday she'll learn UC V, should she survive the next 30 years.

The claw damage in HTH is subject to GM House Rules. If you stick to the exact ITL verbiage, the Reptile Man doesn't get to double the added +2 for claw damage and the doubling is in place of the normal +1 to BHD for HTH. The result is 2d-2 for HTH. There is enough ambiguity to alloplw the HTH that you have stated per GM preference.

But, I must ask, why would you waste IQ of a Reptile Man on dancing? LOL! Does it help with their automatic -1 reaction?

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

But, I must ask, why would you waste IQ of a Reptile Man on dancing? LOL! Does it help with their automatic -1 reaction?

That gives their claws a bonus when cutting a rug.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That gives their claws a bonus when cutting a rug.

That's the ticket!

[Draygon]

Hey Bill, here's my 2 cents-

1. How long has your group played the New TFT?

I was playing four P.C's in a roll20 campaign in Southern Elyntia for the past year. There were a couple of other regular players as well. The GM and the players strictly used the Legacy edition for reference.

2. What is the rough break down of PCs with respect to race? (i.e. 50% human, 25% elf, etc,)
Roughly, about 75% human, the other 25% Goblin.


3. What is the rough break down of attribute totals for the PCs in your group? (i.e. 80% 32-35, 15% 36-38, 3% 39-40, 41 or greater 2%)

100% between 36-39pts, 39 being the highest.

4. What is the highest attribute total among the PCs in your group and what character type/race applies to them?

39pt. Human Paladin was the highest.


That being answered , I will add that those characters were built up to the mid 30's by Arena/To the death combat using Melee exp. Rules PRIOR to entering the campaign. I typically use Melee and Wizard rules on experience to get the characters quickly up to a level where they won't easily die off, and can be used in more advanced type of adventures/ modules/ campaigns. At that point, I kick in the Legacy experience rules. This is when I GM , of course.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Draygon

Hey Bill, here's my 2 cents-

1. How long has your group played the New TFT?

I was playing four P.C's in a roll20 campaign in Southern Elyntia for the past year. There were a couple of other regular players as well. The GM and the players strictly used the Legacy edition for reference.

2. What is the rough break down of PCs with respect to race? (i.e. 50% human, 25% elf, etc,)
Roughly, about 75% human, the other 25% Goblin.


3. What is the rough break down of attribute totals for the PCs in your group? (i.e. 80% 32-35, 15% 36-38, 3% 39-40, 41 or greater 2%)

100% between 36-38pts, 39 being the highest.

4. What is the highest attribute total among the PCs in your group and what character type/race applies to them?

39pt. Human Paladin was the highest.


That being answered , I will add that those characters were built up to the mid 30's by Arena/To the death combat using Melee exp. Rules PRIOR to entering the campaign. I typically use Melee and Wizard rules on experience to get the characters quickly up to a level where they won't easily die off, and can be used in more advanced type of adventures/ modules/ campaigns. At that point, I kick in the Legacy experience rules. This is when I GM , of course.

Thanks for your response. It will be added to the data given by others in my analysis of different EXP systems provided in this thread as it pertains to attribute totals and character development.

I am in the process of starting a local TFT group. The group is just son and myself for now with about 4 others interested but not yet introduced to the game. I came to the conclusion that there were enough changes from Classic to Legacy TFT that I would have to step back and develop an array of characters to truly be able to be a good GM in the Legacy TFT system. It is more than just a case of being a rusty GM and becoming familiar (again) with Classic TFT. I am finding some good things in Legacy and some things with which I don't agree. Other than a few pages of notes and/or house rules I don't plan on re-writing the Legacy TFT rules. The biggest thing that sticks out is the EXP system of Legacy TFT. I have stated my opinion on it already.


I like to run characters through arena battles mainly to test the character's abilities in battle. I award EXP per current ITL but will probably change attribute costs after 36 or 37 to something less draconian and intellectually dishonest. However, I want to complete my analysis first. The last thing that I want to create is incompatible characters between my group and others.

I have been running characters through the Death Tests and will be running other modules soon for my own play testing and increasing GM proficiency. I think that I'm to the point of starting a group at this level. I'm still creating my areas of Cidri that is nowhere near the area provided in ITL. How many Elantias are out there?

My highest character is at 36 or 37. I have Humans, Reptile Men, Elves, and Goblins. About 20 characters total that will probably become NPCs.