Dungeon Fantasy Grappling

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Which said, it's still worth learning a grappling skill for the tricks it offers.[INDENT]Adventurers, p. 92: Want to throw people around? You need to attack with Judo. No amount of DX alone permits this move.

Clearly, Judo is best and the other two aren't as useful. If the GM adds in moves from GURPS, though, they generally don't default to DX. You need skill.

I'll note in passing that the typical builds using Fantastic Dungeon Grappling involve just enough Judo to get you into the realm of not getting filleted by others' weapons, and then focusing on Wrestling because of the ST and per-die bonuses to Control Points that Wrestling enables quickly. You get +2 per die to Control Point damage at DX+4 for Wrestling, but (specifically to balance out the Judo is best thing) that requires DX+10 for Judo.

For strong characters who intend to lock down a single foe with grappling, Wrestling has been the huckleberry for a while.

Sumo is the odd skill out, though I've seen it used to great effect combined with weapons to shove folks to optimum cuisinart range so that your long weapon is maximally useful, and you can deny the ability of foes to force you to use close combat.

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Sumo is the odd skill out, though I've seen it used to great effect combined with weapons to shove folks to optimum cuisinart range so that your long weapon is maximally useful, and you can deny the ability of foes to force you to use close combat.

Mostly a badly named skill we should've called Slamtastic or something . . .

People would find it more fun, I think, if we just let slams made with it be even less risky. Say, you always get a skill roll not to fall down, no matter what you slam or how badly you mess up; your slams (and shoves!) count as armed attacks for the purpose of enemy parries; and your slams (and shoves!) use ST-based skill where better than ST. So, slam maniacs could just run at spearmen, at worst get parried (not stabbed or knocked down), and almost certainly flatten what they hit. It isn't as if it would be any more overpowered than anything else.

[Kalzazz]

You've seen shoves actually be useful? I'm impressed.

Sumo is pretty awesome as slams are sweet, but weapon masters slamming with shields are even more sweet

If you don't have a shield:

1. You have a bow - you don't need to slam you shoot bow
2 - you are a wimp - slamming is a bad idea
3 - you are a brawny meatball with a 2 hander - slam is ideal to close the range!

In a game where meteoric arrows are uncommon and missile shield is common it's great for archers!

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

You've seen shoves actually be useful? I'm impressed.

They're wonderful in fights where one step to either side is a pit of death, so you don't want to risk a slam that could miss or make you fall down, and end up in the pit. But the other guy is able to eat your damage. So, shove him down the pit and let it do the damage.

Maybe you had to be there.

[sjmdw45]

Originally Posted by Kromm

They're wonderful in fights where one step to either side is a pit of death, so you don't want to risk a slam that could miss or make you fall down, and end up in the pit. But the other guy is able to eat your damage. So, shove him down the pit and let it do the damage.

Maybe you had to be there.

The trouble is that shoving is based on your thrust damage vs. enemy ST. In order to move a ST 12 enemy even one hex away from you, you need to roll at least 5 damage on (thr -1 per die), which means you need ST 17+ if you want your shove to be even halfway reliable. (1d+1 will be 5+ half the time.)

Basically, if you're strong enough to shove someone, you're strong enough to penetrate any armor they could reasonably be wearing, especially if you choose a swing weapon.

Also DFRPG doesn't come with rules for shoving someone sideways into the Pit of Death instead of directly away. It should be harder, maybe infeasible, unless you're much stronger than they are. That doesn't mean shoving people into the Pit of Death has to be infeasible but probably not while you're standing on a narrow ledge where one step to either side is death.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by sjmdw45

The trouble is that shoving is based on your thrust damage vs. enemy ST. In order to move a ST 12 enemy even one hex away from you, you need to roll at least 5 damage on (thr -1 per die), which means you need ST 17+ if you want your shove to be even halfway reliable. (1d+1 will be 5+ half the time.)

Sumo Wrestling at DX+2 makes this thr +1/die

Basically, if you're strong enough to shove someone, you're strong enough to penetrate any armor they could reasonably be wearing, especially if you choose a swing weapon.

There are certainly cases where being able to do enough damage to shove the enemy doesn't mean you can penetrate armor. A golem armor swordsman has ST 13 and DR 17. That's 11 points of knockback (so 6+ on a Shove) versus 18 points of damage to penetrate (and of course a shove may be much more tactically valuable than inflicting a minor amount of damage).

Also DFRPG doesn't come with rules for shoving someone sideways into the Pit of Death instead of directly away. It should be harder, maybe infeasible, unless you're much stronger than they are. That doesn't mean shoving people into the Pit of Death has to be infeasible but probably not while you're standing on a narrow ledge where one step to either side is death.

For knockback, "away from you" includes all three of your forward hex facings since in any of those cases the target is farther from you than they started. So you should be able to push them off at an angle.

[mburr0003]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

For knockback, "away from you" includes all three of your forward hex facings since in any of those cases the target is farther from you than they started. So you should be able to push them off at an angle.

You're looking at a Close Combat shove, I believe sjmdw45 is talking about weapon shoves at Reach 1+

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kalzazz

2 - you are a wimp - slamming is a bad idea

Don't tell Brunhilde.