RPM Invisibility rituals

[Celjabba]

I would require Altered Traits for invisibility if you cast it on an independent target (something that can move or interact with the world on its own) - including yourself.
For a ritual that turn an item invisible, otoh, probably not.
But that's for game balance more than any logical analysis.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by Celjabba

I would require Altered Traits for invisibility if you cast it on an independent target (something that can move or interact with the world on its own) - including yourself.
For a ritual that turn an item invisible, otoh, probably not.
But that's for game balance more than any logical analysis.

I kinda agree with this logic. So, I could have two rituals - one for inanimate subjects only, and one for animate OR inanimate subjects. The first one would be much cheaper because of not having Altered Traits modifier. Otherwise the rituals would be identical.

[sir_pudding]

When to Use Altered Traits, How to Be A GURPS GM: Ritual Path Magic p.5, is probably helpful here.

Although based on those guidelines I'm not sure that blinding rituals do. They aren't under the subject's control, while it does modify the target's native abilities itsvmore being turned into a cat than being able to turn in into a cat, Blindness seems implicit to blinding, and it makes sense without Altered Traits.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

When to Use Altered Traits, How to Be A GURPS GM: Ritual Path Magic p.5, is probably helpful here.

Yes, I know those recomendations, but I failed to find use for them here.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

[I]Although based on those guidelines I'm not sure that blinding rituals do. They aren't under the subject's control, while it does modify the target's native abilities itsvmore being turned into a cat than being able to turn in into a cat, Blindness seems implicit to blinding, and it makes sense without Altered Traits.

And it's true to a lot of disadvantages, maybe even to the majority. Spells like Deafness, Lame, Quadriplegic, or even Kleptomania - nothing is under the subject's control. Shouldn't I use Altered Traits for them, as well for almost any other disadvantage?

A lot of other advantages are not "controlled" too, similar to Invisibility. I can't turn off my DR even if I want to suicide. So I don't use Altered Traits for it? Regeneration is not controlled, and I could give it to someone performing ritual self-harming, so he couldn't finish his ritual (evil laugh). So, I don't use Altered Traits for it either, right? Seems really weird.

[qchap]

I've also been always concerned about the Transmogrification spell and the "You don't pay for Altered Traits for the Transform effect, unless it's positive template". So, turning my enemy into a slug would be "Greater Transform Body (8) + Duration, 10 minutes (1) + Range, 20 yards (6) + Subject Weight, 300 lbs. (3). 54 energy (18×3)". And it's effectively a "save or die" spell, because I can kill the slug after the encounter with my bare foot. Transmogrification with an area of effect wouldn't be much more expansive, but would solve entire encounters, unless enemies have some counter-magic or very high resistance.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by qchap

And it's true to a lot of disadvantages, maybe even to the majority. Spells like Deafness, Lame, Quadriplegic, or even Kleptomania - nothing is under the subject's control. Shouldn't I use Altered Traits for them, as well for almost any other disadvantage?

In these cases the last two bullets seem to be relevant. There are general GURPS rules for what happens if you suddenly can't see, or when fighting something you can't see. These rules are independent of traits. There's no rules for what happens if you are suddenly a kelptomaniac other than Kleptomamia. That said just forcing someone to steal something is just Control Mind without Altered Traits.

A lot of other advantages are not "controlled" too, similar to Invisibility. I can't turn off my DR even if I want to suicide. So I don't use Altered Traits for it? Regeneration is not controlled, and I could give it to someone performing ritual self-harming, so he couldn't finish his ritual (evil laugh). So, I don't use Altered Traits for it either, right? Seems really weird.

The last two bullets seem relevant here too, Ghost-Shirt uses Altered Trait because Damage Resistance with Force Field and Limited only makes sense as a trait with those modifiers. Resurgence doesn't use Altered Traits because it defines a regenerative effect without reference to Regeneration.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There are general GURPS rules for what happens if you suddenly can't see, or when fighting something you can't see. These rules are independent of traits. There's no rules for what happens if you are suddenly a kelptomaniac other than Kleptomamia. That said just forcing someone to steal something is just Control Mind without Altered Traits.

Makes sense, but still not too clear for me. One Arm seems like something general, but I think the rules for it are mostly in the disadvantage. Is temporary removing an arm is an Altered Trait or just spell effect?

Mute's rules are also mostly in the disadvantage and are not used anywhere else in general rules I can remember. So, you should pay for it, right? So, making someone mute would be more expensive, then making them blind. Seems wrong.

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

Ghost-Shirt uses Altered Trait because Damage Resistance with Force Field and Limited only makes sense as a trait with those modifiers. Resurgence doesn't use Altered Traits because it defines a regenerative effect without reference to Regeneration.

For those spells it's true, yes. I am trying to think more general.
Say, I want to toughten my skin with Lesser Strengthen Body. +2DR with tough skin is implicit to it, and it's not under the subject's control.

High Pain Threshold has some rules in different places all over GURPS, it's implicit to making the subject feel less pain with Lesser Destroy Body, and it's not controlled by the subject - I could give it to some masochist and he'll be upset. Don't I pay Altered Traits for it?

Extra Arm also has some rules outside of the advantage, and it's implicit to growing an arm with a Greater Transform Body effect. But it's under the subject control, so you should pay for Altered Traits for it, right?

So, giving Invisibility would be cheaper then growing an extra arm, even if the former is more expansive as an advantage and arguably is more useful in a lot of situations.
I've always thought of Altered Traits modifier as a matter of balance, and if I'd use it selectively, it'd fail it's job. Something about it seems wrong.

Other examples like Flight, Telekinesis or Telepathy are obvious:
If you don't add the Flight Altered Trait, then it's not a Flight - it's Telekinesis, and you could use Levitation for yourself - it takes concentrate maneuvers. So, adding Flight is more expensive, but better for the flight.
If you don't add the Telekinesis Altered Trait, than you can move only the subject of the spell, and can't throw it for damage (unless you paid for Damage). You also pay for moving speed, range and weight. If you add Telekinesis Altered Trait, you'd be able to move and throw any object for the duration of the spell. So, again, it's more expensive, but mostly better.
It's very similar for the Telepathy. Without Altered Trait you can communicate only with the subject; with it - with anyone.

Invisibility doesn't seem to follow the same pattern, as doesn't Blindness (and Deafness, and Mute and so on).